important awareness

[Unregistered]

Re: important awareness

This simply says to me that you are already a victim of the terrorists, as are those in public office who ask us to be suspicious of people going about their lawful business in public. The terrorists don't need bombs, they just need people like you who defend zealous civil servants run anti-social campaigns in the name of anti-terrorism.

Of course we need to be vigilant - but that's just common sense. When you start to make everyone suspicious of certain sectors of the community, be they photographers, racial minorities, youths, whatever, then things can get very bad. Why destroy the very thing we are trying to protect?

Ian

It is so strange that this argument/discusion has taken place in so many places, be it sites like this or in parliament, i do not have the answer and it appears that you do not either, one thing is very clear though, those for freedom to take photographs are NEARLY always the photographers and especially those that make money from photography. What do we do about respecting the rights of the general public who do not wish to be photographed? and I do not mean those that seek out fame or positions of power, I do mean the general non photographic savvy public.

[Ian]

Re: important awareness

It is so strange that this argument/discusion has taken place in so many places, be it sites like this or in parliament, i do not have the answer and it appears that you do not either, one thing is very clear though, those for freedom to take photographs are NEARLY always the photographers and especially those that make money from photography. What do we do about respecting the rights of the general public who do not wish to be photographed? and I do not mean those that seek out fame or positions of power, I do mean the general non photographic savvy public.

Once again, you're wrong. There are both unofficial and legally binding restrictions on photography for professional photographers. These people mainly target celebrities and there are guidelines regarding privacy and the justification for public interest.

MOST of the recent debate about photography in public places has been about non-professionals simply wishing to do their hobby, but being challenged and man-handled by police and civilian security personnel who have an incorrect preconception of the law and the rights of such photographers.

At the same time, I don't have much sympathy for any photographer who is insensitive, inconsiderate or just plain rude to people, in public, they wish to or already have snapped. I, and many other photographers, simply want to be treated with the same respect and politeness in return.

If you are in public and don't want to be photographed, photographers certainly should respect your wish, but the default is that as you are in public, you are fair game, so make it clear - politely - that you'd rather not be photographed.

The fact is that a public place is just that - public; where you have to experience being in the same vicinity of lots of other people who are strangers to you. It used to be a friendly place where people would greet total strangers with a smile and a complete lack of mutual suspicion. How about you help to promote a return to that ideal?

Ian

[Unregistered]

Re: important awareness

Once again, you're wrong. There are both unofficial and legally binding restrictions on photography for professional photographers. These people mainly target celebrities and there are guidelines regarding privacy and the justification for public interest.

MOST of the recent debate about photography in public places has been about non-professionals simply wishing to do their hobby, but being challenged and man-handled by police and civilian security personnel who have an incorrect preconception of the law and the rights of such photographers.

At the same time, I don't have much sympathy for any photographer who is insensitive, inconsiderate or just plain rude to people, in public, they wish to or already have snapped. I, and many other photographers, simply want to be treated with the same respect and politeness in return.

If you are in public and don't want to be photographed, photographers certainly should respect your wish, but the default is that as you are in public, you are fair game, so make it clear - politely - that you'd rather not be photographed.

The fact is that a public place is just that - public; where you have to experience being in the same vicinity of lots of other people who are strangers to you. It used to be a friendly place where people would greet total strangers with a smile and a complete lack of mutual suspicion. How about you help to promote a return to that ideal?

Ian

Interesting, this thread started out discussing public security and peoples miconception that ALL photographers in public areas could be or are up to no good or working for terrorist organisations, or could even be peadofiles, Is this the fault of the media/ or the terrorists or peadofiles? This fear "real or imagined" does cause concern to the general public, The media does encourage this fear by exagerating the stories and encouraging this fear to sell newspapers, however we all know this information needs to be made known to the general public, making this information known in the way that it is done is causing problems for the photographer, the non photographic savvy person in the street will be suspicious of phortographers, because of the stories in the papers and on television which also ask them to be vigilant.
"MOST of the recent debate about photography in public places has been about non-professionals simply wishing to do their hobby, but being challenged and man-handled by police and civilian security personnel who have an incorrect preconception of the law and the rights of such photographers."
There is no excuse for the above, however, apart from the above ignorent behaviour of a minority of people, most people turn away or walk away, this however does not deminish there fear or disconfort real or imagined.
I also know that most photographers never ask permission to photograph in public places, and SOME are extremely rude if challenged, with answers along the line of "as you are in public, you are fair game,"
There are definately faults on both sides, When you find an answer let us all know.
" Perhaps all photographers wishing to take photographs in public places, professional or amateur should be registered and licensed? or is this another hot potato?"

[devilgas]

Re: important awareness

i'm fearful of people carrying backpacks and any other kind of bag on public transport or near public places of interest. in fact, thinking of it, i'm fearful of anyone wearing any kind of clothing in public that could conceal weapons or IED's. maybe we should register / licence all those that wish to use these vehicles of concealment as well, as they may, just may, be carrying something i don't like?

oh yeah, my tongue is rammed against the side of the internal cavity of my mouth.

pray tell, what difference will having a "i was a reputable person at the time this licence was issued" declaration make?

**plonk**

[coupekid]

Re: important awareness

I would have loved to have seen the outcome of this:
[ame]http://www.flickr.com/photos/photodrift/2422740769/[/ame]

Some jumped up security gaurd trying to 'detain' street photographers.

[Ian]

Re: important awareness

Interesting, this thread started out discussing public security and peoples miconception that ALL photographers in public areas could be or are up to no good or working for terrorist organisations, or could even be peadofiles, Is this the fault of the media/ or the terrorists or peadofiles? This fear "real or imagined" does cause concern to the general public, The media does encourage this fear by exagerating the stories and encouraging this fear to sell newspapers, however we all know this information needs to be made known to the general public, making this information known in the way that it is done is causing problems for the photographer, the non photographic savvy person in the street will be suspicious of phortographers, because of the stories in the papers and on television which also ask them to be vigilant.
"MOST of the recent debate about photography in public places has been about non-professionals simply wishing to do their hobby, but being challenged and man-handled by police and civilian security personnel who have an incorrect preconception of the law and the rights of such photographers."
There is no excuse for the above, however, apart from the above ignorent behaviour of a minority of people, most people turn away or walk away, this however does not deminish there fear or disconfort real or imagined.
I also know that most photographers never ask permission to photograph in public places, and SOME are extremely rude if challenged, with answers along the line of "as you are in public, you are fair game,"
There are definately faults on both sides, When you find an answer let us all know.
" Perhaps all photographers wishing to take photographs in public places, professional or amateur should be registered and licensed? or is this another hot potato?"

You don't seem to be getting the message. Most of the fears that people have are unfounded. So why let the activities of a tiny minsicule minority of the population govern what the majority should do in their normal every day life in such a negative way? At best, it's an unnecessary nuisance, at worst, it's the precursor to fascism. Do you really think amateur photographers should be registered and licensed? Maybe we should all be restricted to our homes and apply for permission to go out in public and undertake not to look at anyone while out and about?

People should lighten up. Enjoy life while you can. Be vigilant, but don't let the pressures of modern life get to you. Enjoy the company of your fellow human beings. Don't let the terrorists win by making society paranoid...

Ian

[coupekid]

Re: important awareness

You don't seem to be getting the message. Most of the fears that people have are unfounded. So why let the activities of a tiny minsicule minority of the population govern what the majority should do in their normal every day life in such a negative way? At best, it's an unnecessary nuisance, at worst, it's the precursor to fascism. Do you really think amateur photographers should be registered and licensed? Maybe we should all be restricted to our homes and apply for permission to go out in public and undertake not to look at anyone while out and about?

People should lighten up. Enjoy life while you can. Be vigilant, but don't let the pressures of modern life get to you. Enjoy the company of your fellow human beings. Don't let the terrorists win by making society paranoid...

Ian

I agree Ian.

Its rubbish that you should have to ask permission. CCTV cameras.....maybe they should ask permission every time they video you!

How far do you take it, if I am at a car show and take pictures, should I really have to ensure that no one else is in the frame?

I agree if taking picture of an individual, close up, its polite to ask.

Sadly, we now live in a country where everyone gets tarred with the same brush.......

[Unregistered]

Re: important awareness

I would have loved to have seen the outcome of this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/photodrift/2422740769/

Some jumped up security gaurd trying to 'detain' street photographers.

Yes stupid actions by the uninformed,
anyway I'm bored with this now, some good reactions and answers and only one reply dragging the subject into the gutter by name calling.

[coupekid]

Re: important awareness

Yes stupid actions by the uninformed,
anyway I'm bored with this now, some good reactions and answers and only one reply dragging the subject into the gutter by name calling.

Just for future reference. And this is by no means a personal attack on you. Why not join up, have an identity, and join in other discussions, submit some photos etc?
Sometimes it can be a little disconcerting when having discussions with someone without an ID, and you may encourage others to join in on the debate.

[Autumn]

Re: important awareness

I am amazed at the reaction from such a darling little animal(?) I thought a Fluffy Penguin was something you took to bed with you.

Well done Fluffy Penguin for initiating/stimulating the debate.

[Ian]

Re: important awareness

Yes stupid actions by the uninformed,
anyway I'm bored with this now, some good reactions and answers and only one reply dragging the subject into the gutter by name calling.

It must be said that some elementary investigative work (technical information logged with your posts is very similar to that of one specific registered user) suggests that you are indeed a registered member of this forum. If this is correct, why are you choosing to be anonymous?

Ian

[Unregistered]

Re: important awareness

It must be said that some elementary investigative work (technical information logged with your posts is very similar to that of one specific registered user) suggests that you are indeed a registered member of this forum. If this is correct, why are you choosing to be anonymous?

Ian

I am not a registered user of your site, however the person you refer to (Possibly) is a registered member of your site I do happen to use the same system as that/those person/persons however there are at least three other people that at one time were registered with your site. I have my own reasons for not registering, as you say these things can be traced/checked out which makes a nonsense of the so called internet security/annonimity.

[Ian]

Re: important awareness

I am not a registered user of your site, however the person you refer to (Possibly) is a registered member of your site I do happen to use the same system as that/those person/persons however there are at least three other people that at one time were registered with your site. I have my own reasons for not registering, as you say these things can be traced/checked out which makes a nonsense of the so called internet security/annonimity.

Whatever. As you plainly won't register or admit that you are already registered, or have any intention of registering, and I've received complaints about the nature of your responses and covert posting, I will have to bid you farewell and close guest posting for the time being.

Ian

[Josh Bear]

Re: important awareness

Dear All,

Had a letter from my mp today and he also attached a letter he had received from Tony Mcnulty minister of state.

The letter from the minister reads

"thank you for your letter ......

There is no legal restriction on photography in public places, and there is no presumption of privacy for individuals in a public place.

It is for the chief constable to ensure that officers and police community support officers are acting appropriately with regards to photography in public places, and any queries regarding this should be addressed to the cheif constable.

However decisions may be made locally to restrict photography for example to protect children. Any questions on such local decisions should be addressed to the force concerned.


Sorry I don't have a scanner.

Josh

[Ian]

Re: important awareness

Dear All,

Had a letter from my mp today and he also attached a letter he had received from Tony Mcnulty minister of state.

The letter from the minister reads

"thank you for your letter ......

There is no legal restriction on photography in public places, and there is no presumption of privacy for individuals in a public place.

It is for the chief constable to ensure that officers and police community support officers are acting appropriately with regards to photography in public places, and any queries regarding this should be addressed to the cheif constable.

However decisions may be made locally to restrict photography for example to protect children. Any questions on such local decisions should be addressed to the force concerned.


Sorry I don't have a scanner.

Josh

Thanks Josh, how about taking a picture of the letter?

Ian