Stephens Diptych

[Pol]

Re: Stephens Diptych

George you have obviously given this a lot of thought. I do agree that one judge can only reflect on his/hers personal taste and photographic knowledge. We do have a polling facility on this forum and I would like to see that put to good use regards the selecting of a winning entry. There is still the option for the winner to select the next theme. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable seeing results posted that showed how many votes each entry had received. This way the winner of the previous salon is relived of having to comment on the entries, removing all thoughts of creating bad feelings etc. One vote per registered user, plus leave Ian to decide who gets the prize, would remove any thoughts of cheating. If others feel like George, Pol, or myself, lets have a vote on it. Then others can make their feelings known anonymously.

FWIW .. as far as I am concerned 'Salon' and 'Competition' are a contradiction in terms. Either we have a Salon or a Competition.

I am not in favour of a poll and/or voting for winners for a Salon. The curator decides and that's that. End of story.

I am not in favour of more rules and regulations.

A competition is something altogether different from a 'salon' in my experience.

My personal view, for what it's worth, is that the original salon was mistakenly entitled "Salon Competition #1" ...... rather than "Salon #1 - Looking Up" and so the word 'Competiton' became too prominent and detracted from the overall principles of a Salon.

It would also be easier to see the titles of previous salons if the themes were included in the title (eg Looking Up, Blue,Timeless etc etc.)

The best suggestion I can make, now that things seem to be producing more debate, argument and discussion than fun, would be to have a Salon running quite separately from any Competition as such.

2 threads (or even forums)

1) A Salon with the usual more relaxed rules. No prizes and primarily for fun (and to promote individual ideas and specific interpretations of the given theme ... without highly defined guidance from the curator)

2) A separate Competition which would need to be agreed, set up and managed by Ian and the board Admin along with carefully decided rules, regulations, judging system and prizes.

Speaking personally -- I would use the salons but I would not be likely to enter competitions. I prefer to develop at my own pace and without pressures and stresses. I can't always manage to get out and about so I can keep up with fresh shots either so salons always have been my best option. I started using them with a mailing list and definitetly feel my skills improved just by looking at the way others interpreted the theme, the ideas, life in general as well as challenging and improving photographic skills as time passed.

A Salon should be fun - a challenge to think about the theme and come up with your own interpretation without expecting or asking for extra guidance and suggestions from the curator and/or others. A way of expanding one's thoughts, visual perceptions and aiming to do the best we can and presenting a photo to convey our perceptions. Our photography skills grow naturally as our thoughts and perceptions develop and we aim to produce a strong image that can stand alone on topic and within the theme ..... I like to think mine did anyay and I continue to try to develop my all-round skills.

I should add that the above comments and remarks are my own personal thoughts, not necessarily representative of the board owners and admin.

I'm just the 'human spam filter' who tries to help out generally with queries, galleries, software and other little background jobs - so please be aware these are merely my own, very personal views.

Pol

[Pol]

Re: Stephens Diptych

One more thing, for anyone who may be interested.

Here's a link to the original mailing list Salons I used to look through. Specific to Street Photography in this case, rules linked at the top of the page somewhere. They have a new list and online forums now, which I no longer follow.

Pol

[lumix]

Re: Stephens Diptych

1) A Salon with the usual more relaxed rules. No prizes and primarily for fun (and to promote individual ideas and specific interpretations of the given theme ... without highly defined guidance from the curator)

Agree with that suggestion Pol. If the winner was the entry with the best interpretation of the theme regardless of image quality, then I feel a lot more would take part.

2) A separate Competition which would need to be agreed, set up and managed by Ian and the board Admin along with carefully decided rules, regulations, judging system and prizes.

This would be ideal for the members that want to show their technical abilities, and should be judged by a panel that have the experience and knowledge relating to image quality etc etc.

I'm concerned that the present Salon is fast becoming a Competition which will totally remove the Fun element. Like George, I would like to here what others have to say, after all it's the users that need to voice their opinion now that the subject is getting an airing.

[Bearface]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Wow, looks like I've missed out on some lively debate. Still, if nobody minds I'd really like to add my views to those already expressed.

Firstly, I'm absolutely stunned at some of the more negative comments I've read. Like Stephen, I'm not wishing to enter into an endless debate about how the Salon should be run, but at the same time I think a few things need to addressed.

The fact that there is now a prize involved does change the Salon by definition (into a contest, no less), but this doesn't alter the spirit of the event one iota. The whole point of the prize was to attract more interest and perhaps motivate certain people into putting more consideration and effort into their photography. This was a good thing.

The formula - basically that one curator (usually the winner of the previous salon / contest) sets the theme and judges the entries - is undeniably simple and definitely effective. It's also entirely fair because as the record shows so far, the winners have ranged from full-time professionals through to relatively inexperienced amateurs. This means that if everyone regularly makes a real effort to produce a strong, worthy image, they're in with a chance of not only winning the 2GB media card, but also the chance to choose a theme and select the subsequent winner based on their own criteria. What a superb motivation for literally anyone with a pulse!

Certain people have expressed the view that the judging system is somehow inappropriate and while it's certainly a point of view, I totally disagree. THE WHOLE POINT of this particular bit of fun is that judging comes down to the personal criteria (usually a combination of objective standards and subjective taste) of the previous winner; a single person. THE WHOLE POINT is that each fortnight, we try to tailor our images to the criteria set by one person. The fun element is doing our best to interpret what the curator is thinking, by trying to understand them and then hopefully getting close enough to get a mention, or even a prize if we're lucky. Quite how this can be seen as a bad thing, I just don't know

The quality of the feedback available from a single judge has also been brought into question. People have suggested that there should perhaps be a vote to determine the result, but again I have to disagree. A vote is no more indicative of the true quality of an image than the view of a single person (as a veteran member of Photosig, a site which thrives on points, I can testify to that...)................but in any case the contest isn't about feedback It's about entering into the spirit of light-hearted competition (and maybe motivating people to try slightly harder than usual), but ultimately it's about making your shot appeal to the one judge / curator, not a crowd of anonymous voters who didn't set the theme in the first place. If anyone wants feedback on an image, they only have to post it in the critique forum and they'll get as much feedback as they could ever need, so the Salon should be seen for what it is - a bit of healthy fun and the chance to win a prize and do some judging of your own...

And then we come to the range of ability and experience we have here at DPNow. I'm almost certain that there are people here who think it's unfair for experienced or professional photographers to enter the salon because it compromises their chances. Nonsense.....there have so far been more non-professional winners than professional ones! In any case, if you enter any kind of contest you must do your very best in the knowledge that there are always people either with more experience or greater skills than you might have; that's why we should always put our hearts and souls into such things, because often it's this extra effort which sees the underdogs pull through and win. In the case of photography, none of us has any real advantage in the context of this salon because the judges themselves are looking at things far more subjectively than say, a panel of judges in a "serious" competition..............it's the favourite image that wins here, and not necessarily the best one technically.

I'm seriously hoping that people will stop thinking of reasons to be unhappy about elements of the salon and instead get into the spirit of things by submitting their very best efforts each fortnight. Let's make the salon an institution here and let's try to do so by keeping it simple and enjoying the process, instead of trying to criticise it. Everyone is in with a chance and that means that many of us will be judging and setting themes at some point, be it soon or in the future. Blaming the rules and citing all kinds of reasons why "it doesn't work" won't improve things, but putting everything into producing contest-winning shots most definitely will. So just do it

[coupekid]

Re: Stephens Diptych

George you have obviously given this a lot of thought. I do agree that one judge can only reflect on his/hers personal taste and photographic knowledge. We do have a polling facility on this forum and I would like to see that put to good use regards the selecting of a winning entry. There is still the option for the winner to select the next theme. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable seeing results posted that showed how many votes each entry had received. This way the winner of the previous salon is relived of having to comment on the entries, removing all thoughts of creating bad feelings etc. One vote per registered user, plus leave Ian to decide who gets the prize, would remove any thoughts of cheating. If others feel like George, Pol, or myself, lets have a vote on it. Then others can make their feelings known anonymously.

I do understand what your saying, but the point of the Salon, is for the individual who chose the subject, to decide the winner.

May I ask if in the past you have disagreed with the winning entry?

[lumix]

Re: Stephens Diptych

I do understand what your saying, but the point of the Salon, is for the individual who chose the subject, to decide the winner.

May I ask if in the past you have disagreed with the winning entry?

Yes, but that is not what matters here. We all have different ideas of how it should be judged. I personally place more importance on the interpretation of the theme. Others may feel that quality is the most important factor. There is, as you know, a very successful salon that has run now for over a year. DPnow's salon was based on it's success so why not run it as they do, for fun. When it comes down to interpretation then all are equal, add quality and prizes and the members with point & shot and little editing facilities will feel it's just not worth entering. On the salon I referred to they even use camera phones. How would they compete with a canon D5 and professional studio. No contest I'm all for the big guns entering, but lets judge it on their interpretation which anyone can compete with.
Ok so some non-professionals have won the salon, but I'm sure all were using DSLR's. If you want to involve more members then the playing field needs to be leveled. In competitions yes quality and expertise count. In a fun salon, which this is supposed to be, you can only judge an image on the photographers merits not their equipment. Someone help me down of my soap box

PS to above. If you feel this is a biased opinion, have a look at how many members that seem to have dropped out of the salon. I've run back over most of the previous salons and many of the early participants are no longer taking part. Why I ask ?

[peter]

Re: Stephens Diptych

[QUOTE
PS to above. If you feel this is a biased opinion, have a look at how many members that seem to have dropped out of the salon. I've run back over most of the previous salons and many of the early participants are no longer taking part. Why I ask ?[/QUOTE]

Well I have read all of the above and not to drag it out to much I like the way things are run in the salon. I am also one of the people that did not enter the last one but that was because I could not get my head around the theme not because It was above me or I was getting fed up with it but because I just could not come up with anything. I hope to enter the one that is running at the moment just need to find the right thing as I do have something in mind.

[Autumn]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Ok so some non-professionals have won the salon, but I'm sure all were using DSLR's.

I have been fortunate to win twice. Both shots were in my archive. One was a grab shot - my grandson (emotions) and the other, (25th April Bridge), I tried hard to make a good shot as our cruise ship was going under this bridge and the sun was just rising.

I do not own a DSLR.

Both of these shots were taken with my Canon Powershot G3, which is now over 3 years old.

I really enjoy the Salon/contest. I try to guess the winners and look forward to seeing how people interpret the Challenge.
I particularly liked it when Bearface said we could not use archive material because it made me set up something in the house, which although I didn't win (and didn't expect to as I had a date on the image, therefore it could not be 'Timeless,") I felt great satisfaction and interest just experimenting.

[Bearface]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Yes, but that is not what matters here. We all have different ideas of how it should be judged. I personally place more importance on the interpretation of the theme. Others may feel that quality is the most important factor. There is, as you know, a very successful salon that has run now for over a year. DPnow's salon was based on it's success so why not run it as they do, for fun.

Sorry Ron, but I'm increasingly sensing a cop-out here. This is a site for people who are passionate about photography and of course the membership ranges from newbie amateurs to experienced professionals...........so consequently the salon entries are going to vary in terms of perceived quality; you wouldn't expect anything else! However, the salon has been won more times by amateur (or hobbyist) photographers than by experienced or professional ones, so how do you explain that?

As for the "fun" bit, well I'd like to know why you think submitting your best efforts to a contest where there's a chance you could win a nice prize AND judge the subsequent salon.......isn't fun. It's evident that you don't need to be experienced or professional to do so, so who's taking the fun out of it exactly?

When it comes down to interpretation then all are equal, add quality and prizes and the members with point & shot and little editing facilities will feel it's just not worth entering. On the salon I referred to they even use camera phones. How would they compete with a canon D5 and professional studio. No contest I'm all for the big guns entering, but lets judge it on their interpretation which anyone can compete with.

Ok so some non-professionals have won the salon, but I'm sure all were using DSLR's. If you want to involve more members then the playing field needs to be leveled. In competitions yes quality and expertise count. In a fun salon, which this is supposed to be, you can only judge an image on the photographers merits not their equipment. Someone help me down of my soap box

This is precisely what I was referring to when I suggested the cop-out. You're pretty much saying that if you have a point and shoot and "little" in terms of editing facilities (like many people I just have Photoshop, but GIMP is a free editing suite in which most PS tasks can be achieved...), that you can't produce a high-quality image. Sorry, but that's just nonsense - until 2003 I used only a point and shoot (Sony DSC-F717) camera for my work and the quality was fine - it's the planning, vision and execution which makes winning shots, not the kit you use. And as for the comments on the "Canon 5D and the professional studio", well frankly I'd love to know how that makes a difference - I think I'm the only one here with my own studio and a 5D (so it's clear where your resentment is being aimed), but I could've made the same shot in my kitchen using your Panasonic and a flashgun, so you're definitely on the wrong track there, too.

BTW, I curated the last salon and I judged the winner based on their interpretation of the theme and how the shot made me feel. It was entirely subjective stuff, which is pretty much what you've been complaining about the alleged lack of! This may seem harsh, but I genuinely think you're making excuses here. If you're passionate about photography, you don't need a studio, a Canon 5D or even an SLR to make Salon-winning shots, you just need a camara, a vision and some basic knowledge. These are the qualities which have won the salons thus far and they will continue to do so. However, if you want "fun" to mean "that nobody needs to make any real effort to win the prize", then I'm afraid you won't get my agreement.

Oh, just one more thing. I'd be more than happy to use a mobile phone camera or even an old 35mm SLR if the curator demanded it. I'd also be happy to take shots without studio lighting or other equipment, but these criteria wouldn't stop me getting the pictures I wanted and nor would such conditions stop other people here. Equipment is irrelevant.

PS to above. If you feel this is a biased opinion, have a look at how many members that seem to have dropped out of the salon. I've run back over most of the previous salons and many of the early participants are no longer taking part. Why I ask ?

I don't think yours is a biased opinion at all, but it definitely isn't one that I share. It's certainly interesting that you've taken the time to review past salons and their statistics though, and I'm genuinely hoping you put as much effort into your salon entry, because it's that kind of attention to detail which wins these things

As to the question of why certain members aren't taking part in the salon, well maybe those you're referring to will post here and discuss their reasons? I personally take the view that these things fluctuate in terms of popularity, but if you (or anyone else) knows better, then please share your thoughts here.

[ddigit]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Hey Guys,

Call me laid back but I really enjoy the competitions - dont really care about a prize or anything - just like participating and seeing everyones interpretation of the subject. I look on this as a learning process - helps the creative processes to have a challenge evry now & then.

Trev

[Tinka]

Re: Stephens Diptych

WOW!,
Did I really start all this friendly Banter/discussion/argument? Very interesting and informative regarding peoples views and outlook on salons/comps etc: I look at it this way, all situations are an opportunity to learn, and if a PRO puts up an image and it is superb, (They are not always) then it is an opportunity for me to try to produce a similar piece of work, I save it off onto my computer and then use it as a reference when working on my own images. As an aside a Conon D5, even with its full size chip will not always produce the best image unless it has the very best optics attached, a 350D or a nickon will produce equally good images with the right glass on the front, it is usually down to the photographer and his her vision and the optics to produce the finest images. Interpretation of a theme is very subjective and personal, Wether a pro or a beginner or something in between, Please enter the salon/comp within the spirit of Fun and Learning

[lumix]

Re: Stephens Diptych

I've been politely told to sit down and stop rocking the boat, so that is what I will do. It seems that some are more sensitive than the CCD in their camera. Tim you are not the only proud owner of a canon 5d, nor are you the only one in this world with a studio. I was merely making a point that despite what you say, equipment does make one hell of a difference, otherwise why do people invest so much in such equipment. You may have the expertise to take great pictures with a phone-camera, but even you would not contemplate using one to compete against your friend Stephen with his Canon gear. I did not intend this discussion to get into a personal war with other members. I was purely stating my views on how the salon could be made more attractive to members with the hope of increasing the number of entries. If you or any one else for that matter feel I have been targeting them personally, then please except my apologies. I'll now lay down and let the Good Ship Lollipop sail on it's merry way.

[Bearface]

Re: Stephens Diptych

I've been politely told to sit down and stop rocking the boat, so that is what I will do. It seems that some are more sensitive than the CCD in their camera.

I didn't think you were rocking the boat Ron, I just thought you were wrong. It's not as if people were queueing up to agree with you regarding the salon and it's current format, so I for one am glad that a positive spirit prevailed for the right reasons.

Tim you are not the only proud owner of a canon 5d, nor are you the only one in this world with a studio. I was merely making a point that despite what you say, equipment does make one hell of a difference, otherwise why do people invest so much in such equipment. You may have the expertise to take great pictures with a phone-camera, but even you would not contemplate using one to compete against your friend Stephen with his Canon gear.

1. I said I thought I was the only 5D owner with a studio on this forum (not the only one in existence...) and so I assumed your remarks were directed at me, particularly since I won the 8th salon with a studio-produced shot. Given the motivation for your arguments in this thread, it seemed pretty likely you had a studio-owning, 5D user in your sights at the time...

Edit: Professionals and enthusiasts invest in high-end equipment for a variety of reasons, but mainly because in any profession or serious hobby it's always considered best to buy or use the best tools available to you. I have 2 Canon DSLRs (my girlfriend is also a photographer and she uses the 1D MkII) and we use these to shoot for clients, to make large prints and to post on the Web. We don't have access to any other camera, but if we did we'd probably use them for such things as this salon...

2. Equipment does not make a difference in the context of the internet and the 72dpi files we upload and view. All cameras perform essentially the same tasks, but the vision (or eye) of the user is down to that user and this is when great pictures differ from ordinary ones. The technical side of photography can be learned by literally anyone, so eventually it pretty much comes down to this: do you have the eye for a good shot, or don't you? That's why it's fun........at least to most of us

3. As for having the expertise to use a phome camera, well I think that remark speaks for itself! Phone cameras give the user no real control, so it's completely down to that vision I mentioned and the rest is up to the camera. However I did say that if the curator demanded it, I'd use such a means to get the necessary shots, so it's quite obvious that if I was competing wth Stephen (or anyone else), that they'd be using one too...

I did not intend this discussion to get into a personal war with other members. I was purely stating my views on how the salon could be made more attractive to members with the hope of increasing the number of entries. If you or any one else for that matter feel I have been targeting them personally, then please except my apologies. I'll now lay down and let the Good Ship Lollipop sail on it's merry way.

There hasn't been a war here Ron, just a wholesale disagreement on a number of points you've made. From where I'm standing the salon is doing very well (and it's still very much in it's infancy right now), and in the main people are enjoying it enormously. The fact that you've expressed a desire to change something which has yet to "bed in" in terms of it's format and familiarity to users certainly suggests that you're not happy, but then I'm sure you told me recently in another thread that "you can't please all of the people, all of the time...". How true is that..?

Finally, don't lay down and miss the fun. Get out there and give it your very best each fortnight and like everyone else who does, you'll be in with a chance of winning the salon and setting the rules for a whole fortnight. Imagine that...

[lumix]

Re: Stephens Diptych

No you did not tell me to stop rocking the boat. That message came by another means. I'm glad you made the point that you would be happy to use a phone camera, but only if all the others were using the same. My point of this whole discussion. You also said by the nature of the limiting factors of a camera phone (this applies to most P & P cameras) then it would be down to vision and interpretation. Just what have I been wasting my time trying to get over, exactly these points. Nuff said, I'll just go alone with the signature in your post.

[Bearface]

Re: Stephens Diptych

No you did not tell me to stop rocking the boat. That message came by another means.

I don't recall claiming that I told you to do anything, Ron. I just said that I didn't think you were rocking the boat. Not at all in fact...

I'm glad you made the point that you would be happy to use a phone camera, but only if all the others were using the same. My point of this whole discussion. You also said by the nature of the limiting factors of a camera phone (this applies to most P & P cameras) then it would be down to vision and interpretation. Just what have I been wasting my time trying to get over, exactly these points. .

I didn't say that I'd only use a mobile phone camera IF everyone else was using one (not that I need to deny it.....it's in black and white just up the page!), I said that in a salon where the curator demanded it, everyone would be using one in any case! Your "point of the whole discussion"..? I sincerely hope not...

Ron, if you seriously believe that by being forced to use a regular, non SLR digicam to shoot for these forums, that I'd be (or anyone else here who uses a DSLR) in some way incapable of making a good image, think again. In the context of Web-sized, 72DPi images, it really doesn't matter what you use, provided it's capable of the necessary, basic functions. You're on a ride into nowhere with this equipment obsession, believe me.

Nuff said, I'll just go alone with the signature in your post

You must do what you think is right, Ron. It's just a pity that you don't seem to want to adhere to your own signature post...