Stephens Diptych

[Tinka]

Something a little different, but which came out of the most unbeleivabley abortive day, but thats another story

This Diptych shows the gamekeeper or firebeater controlling the burning of the heather on the grouse moors of North Yorkshire


Hi Stephen, posted here to avoid cluttering up the comp thread."unbeleivabley abortive day", If I had taken those photographs, I would consider the day to have been very successfull indeed, The drama of the fire, the lone dark figure, the whole image/s are in my opinion superb. I have seen this cenario every year up until the process was baned in our area and there are normally many people present and also farm vehicles etc: to catch the lone figure in your images really makes the image. this is my own personal view and opinion.

[Stephen]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Something a little different, but which came out of the most unbeleivabley abortive day, but thats another story

This Diptych shows the gamekeeper or firebeater controlling the burning of the heather on the grouse moors of North Yorkshire


Hi Stephen, posted here to avoid cluttering up the comp thread."unbeleivabley abortive day", If I had taken those photographs, I would consider the day to have been very successfull indeed, The drama of the fire, the lone dark figure, the whole image/s are in my opinion superb. I have seen this cenario every year up until the process was baned in our area and there are normally many people present and also farm vehicles etc: to catch the lone figure in your images really makes the image. this is my own personal view and opinion.

Thanks for your comments Tinka. Yes,I suppose this was the one saving grace of the day.

It had started so well too as the weather was spot on. Tim and I had intended to visit a beauty spot in Upper Nidderdale. Having set off around 11am in order to get there not long after noon so as to get the sun at it's highest. This was something we considered important bearing in mind what we wanted to do.

Strangely the Sat Nav was saying an ETA of 1ish.... odd I thought. Anyway after taking us the quickest route, we were eventually taken along some unknown and narrow lanes, short cuts thought I. We were being taken higher onto the moors, untill eventually the metalled road petered out and it became a rough track, I suppose and old drovers road.

Tim was driving, so he made the dicision to continue, the SN was saying 3.5 miles left. We could handle that surely, and it would be quicker than going back and finding an alternative route.

How wrong could we be

After negotiating the rough road, up and down dale, through two gates and contending with ruts and rocks. We arrived at our destination................................ only it wasn't We were eventually faced with 2 more gates allowing access to 2 different diverging roads, neither of which were metalled or offered any immediate hope of civilisation. We could have had to drive for miles, and the Sat Nav map showed nothing in the vicinity.

So with heavy heart and some degree of disappointment, we decided it best to turn back, and negotiate the perils of what we had just experienced but in reverse.

Well by this time there was barely any point in trying to get to our intended destination, as the time left available for photos would have meant getting back home rather late. So you see what I mean by an abortive day It never really happened for us. However, I did get some shots of the firebeater on the way over the moors which was a concelation, Tim never got his camera out actually at this point, so it was as well I spotted some potential in the scene.

Here is another shot which gives more of an overview of the scene. The original Salon post was taken using a 70-200 @200mm + 1.4 extender, and is somewhat cropped from the original. This one is at 90mm

[Archangel]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Stephen, doesn't seem to let anybody else to win in the Salon competitions.
Which building should I go burn now and then sit on the corner side across to start snapping?

P.S.: Very nice photos indeed, regardless of the sad fire situation.

George

[Stephen]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Stephen, doesn't seem to let anybody else to win in the Salon competitions.
Which building should I go burn now and then sit on the corner side across to start snapping?

P.S.: Very nice photos indeed, regardless of the sad fire situation.

George

Hehe, only the once so far George However I do believe in trying my best in order to raise the standard, and not simply take the easy option of taking one from the archive. I nearly submitted one of those actually We ought to have a thread for photos that nearly made it to the Salon

As for the sad fire situation as you put it, in reality this is not so. This type of moorland is managed for grouse shooting. Burning the thatch of old heather vegetation, incourages new growth from beneath, and I suppose makes it easier for all concerned when the season starts in August. In summer these moorland areas are simply covered in a mass of purple.

[Pol]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Hehe, only the once so far George However I do believe in trying my best in order to raise the standard, and not simply take the easy option of taking one from the archive.

.

Whilst I agree it's good to aim to raise standards, I also feel we shouldn't lose sight of the fact the salon was originally intended to be mainly for FUN

It was also originally intended for the fun of seeing how everyone interpreted the theme - so that beginners felt they had an equal chance of being chosen as winner and curator for the next salon.

I really do feel it's important that the Salon doesn't evolve into a photographic competition with a specific highly defined subject rather than a fun Salon with a wider theme with individual interpretations.

Personally - I find individual interpretations more stimulating, regardless of the skill level of the photographer. High quality photos are great - but let's not get too rigid about it and deter beginners.

I'm not 'into' competitons myself. Never have been and never will be so I urge all those who may feel intimidated by some of the pro standard entries to go ahead, interpret the Salon theme in your own way and post your shot.

I'm interested to see how you interpreted the meaning of the theme title so stuff what anyone else might be doing, thinking or saying. I'm interested in seeing how the mind works - not only how skilled, or not, you might be as a snapper.

Waffle over -

(or was that a " hey up, it's Pol on one of her a rants" rant, Stephen?)

Pol

[lumix]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Whilst I agree it's good to aim to raise standards, I also feel we shouldn't lose sight of the fact the salon was originally intended to be mainly for FUN

It was also originally intended for the fun of seeing how everyone interpreted the theme - so that beginners felt they had an equal chance of being chosen as winner and curator for the next salon.

I really do feel it's important that the Salon doesn't evolve into a photographic competition with a specific highly defined subject rather than a fun Salon with a wider theme with individual interpretations.

Personally - I find individual interpretations more stimulating, regardless of the skill level of the photographer. High quality photos are great - but let's not get too rigid about it and deter beginners.

I'm not 'into' competitons myself. Never have been and never will be so I urge all those who may feel intimidated by some of the pro standard entries to go ahead, interpret the Salon theme in your own way and post your shot.

I'm interested to see how you interpreted the meaning of the theme title so stuff what anyone else might be doing, thinking or saying. I'm interested in seeing how the mind works - not only how skilled, or not, you might be as a snapper.

Waffle over -

(or was that a " hey up, it's Pol on one of her a rants" rant, Stephen?)

Pol

Pol I second everything you have said. That's just how I see things going and with the added PRIZE it can only go further down hill. Shame, it started out quite well.

[Stephen]

Re: Stephens Diptych

It seems that Tinkas thread has become a vehicle for people to express their concerns over the Salon.

Let me make my position clear therefore.
At present I have none of these concerns. I do not disaggree with what Pol has said. However I do not think that so far the themes have been TOO specific and certainly they have not been unacheivable by anyone.

If people are only happy to stay within their own comfort zone of making their pics fit the theme, then fine, don't have too much of a problem with that. If people want to go out and raise their game, producing something for the theme and using their imagination then even better.

I see no problem at all in so called high quality photos, the bottom line is if they fullfill the criteria of the theme and whether one is judged by the curator to be clearly better than the rest. It matters not what the rest think, its down to a single person, and thats what makes this competiton different and fair.

Now if I was to be told that my entries were of a standard that put others off from entering the competition, I would be very suprised, and would consider there was a dumming down conspiracy going on. I don't believe that however, but would happily withdraw or not accept any further winning position if this was the case. How would this make others feel however if they thought their winning entry was really not the best.

I'm totally with Pol on the matter of interpretation, I think you will agree my entries so far have been imaginative and not too predictable. Check out my Salon Gallery if you are unsure about that.

I'm not too sure why the addition of a prize as Ron suggests, will make things go downhill. I don't see a problem in offering a little incentive, frankly its what I imagine most people would expect. As with all competition, incentive is what drives people to improve, raise their game, push themselves, excell, call it what you will. As I recall Ron himself entered a DPNow competition, produced an excellent result and duly won a prize. I rest my case

[Pol]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Yay ..... it looks like this old Geordie tart has started summick heor.

I'd suggest y'all should go ahead and post an entry in the salon, in your own style and with your own interpretation anyway. You've nowt to lose and you even have a chance of 2Gb card to win. If you don't win - just remember second place is always better 'cos you don't have all the work and hassle of curating the next salon (now who's gonna box my ears for reminding everyone of that little gem, eh).

If you fancy starting a 'theme or subject thread' of your own, why not just go ahead and do so in Eye of the Camera? I mean - look how popular and successful coupekid's wildlife theme has been, still running and as popular as ever too.

We have a dedicated photography board here - uk based too, which is a rarity in itself. So c'mon let's have some fun using it to it's full potential, eh.

I already have 14-16Gb of SD cards so I don't really need another one but I'm still having a go in the Salons, aiming for second place - but that's not naughty really ... is it?


Pol

[lumix]

Re: Stephens Diptych

I'm not too sure why the addition of a prize as Ron suggests, will make things go downhill. I don't see a problem in offering a little incentive, frankly its what I imagine most people would expect. As with all competition, incentive is what drives people to improve, raise their game, push themselves, excell, call it what you will. As I recall Ron himself entered a DPNow competition, produced an excellent result and duly won a prize. I rest my case

It would seem that you have a very short memory Stephen, as I recall that when I suggested starting a similar competition on another ISP, you stated that prizes had been the downfall of a previous attempt. Prizes lead to cheating etc was how you described it. And we certainly don't want that to happen do we?
With regard to my competition prize. a) I was unaware there were any prizes when I entered. b) My main objective in entering the competition was to highlight that you do not need Photoshop CS2 or any other professional equipment to competed and indeed win. I urge all to have a go, no matter what they have at there disposal.
There are many competitions running with some really good prizes. If prizes is what you want then go enter, but if it's FUN you are after then this should be a good place to participate.

[Stephen]

Re: Stephens Diptych

It would seem that you have a very short memory Stephen, as I recall that when I suggested starting a similar competition on another ISP, you stated that prizes had been the downfall of a previous attempt. Prizes lead to cheating etc was how you described it. And we certainly don't want that to happen do we?

I really don't want to get into an argument over this Ron, I have made my current opinions clear in my post above. However, I certainly respect your opinion, though I still fail to appreciate why in this particular instance the competition will go downhill with the inclusion of a small prize.

The situation you refer to above was a totally different style of competition, where members submitted a photo and they could vote on that photo in a Poll situation. This it was felt led to multiple entries from the same person with different accounts, and similarly with the voting. Several anomalies were thrown up with the results and it was felt that the prize and promotion by the management had led to abuse of what had been a small and simple affair. The DPNow Salon with its small prize is totally different and not open to abuse in the same way, one person decides, end of story.

Anyway Ron, hope to see an entry from you in the current salon, I'm sure you will be able to come up with a cracking shot, as you have in the past.

[Archangel]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Raising the standards is what makes any photographer of any level of skill or experience to get better. So this is of vital importance for aiming higher and higher and should not be considered egoistic by any means and not ceased either.

As far as the Salon Competition is concerned maybe some refinements of the initial idea will lead into more fair competition and I explain what I mean by "fair" later below.

So far, after the end of a Salon Competition all the comments of all users are of the same type: "Well Deserved", "Well Done", "I would have picked the same", e.t.c
Never heard anybody to say: "I think X's photo was better" or "X deserved to win" or similar expressions. Never saw anybody including myself to argue with the curator's pick.
OK, that is normal as it might create evils between users, should be avoided, but something else must be done for the competition to be more fair and without having even to slightly lie politely by all of us agreeing all the time with the curator's pick.
And don't tell me that we all agree with what the curator picks every time.

I like to be realistic, apart from how that sounds. Certainly it doesn't sound rude though and certainly there have been many times that I would have picked a different winning photo or all photos different from what the curator have picked. Would I be right or wrong if I had the opportunity to do so? I would have been right according to my opinion or to few other opinions too and wrong according to some other opinions.

Maybe the Salon Competition winner should be selected by public voting from all registered users that wish to do so. Or maybe there shouldn't be any winner, just photos posted related to the theme every time. Or maybe there should be a percentage of the photos entered as winners without 1st, 2nd and 3rd position.
If for example in a Salon Competition are entered 40 photos, then let's say a 10% or 20% of the photos entered will be the the best 4 or 8 photos respectively of the competition after some public voting.
Anyway there are all kinds of alternatives (plus many more in my mind that I will say them if I asked to) that they can possible discussed adopted or even voted for picking up the one finally adopted if there is intension for such a further discussion.

What I find most frustrating in the Salon Competitions is that while they are supposed to be mostly fun, they end up loading users with stress and anxiety of what photo to enter in order to beat each other in the eyes of the current curator.

All of us have different style and according to the style we have, we interpret photos differently and so we like different kind of photos.
So when the public opinion differ so much, imagine how accurate in terms of selection can be considered one person's judgement.
With this I'm not saying that one person cannot pick a very good photo. I'm saying that one person will pick according to his style of liking, while other photos can be equally good or better according to someone's else style.

That is the main reason that my entries in the Salon Competition are average photos (and will continue to be) and none of my competition entries exist in my galleries before the Salon runs or after it is over. And that is also the reason that I never comment inside the Salon Competition thread (except once or twice I think that someone posted a message for liking my photo) about anybody else's photos. I just participate for the fun of it and like to avoid the stress of it.

SD card gifts or other related gifts are welcomed, but not the main motive for me to enter a fun competition. It looks that they have slightly affected the idea (as initially started) of the Salon, but not to the point that it can be considered as a downhill yet. I'm really neutral on this.


Regards

George

[Stephen]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Raising the standards is what makes any photographer of any level of skill or experience to get better. So this is of vital importance for aiming higher and higher and should not be considered egoistic by any means and not ceased either.

(snipped but read with interest)

Regards

George

George thanks for your thoughtful input on this, you make some valid observations and some interesting points.

I am reliably informed that strictly speaking a 'Salon' should not be considered a 'Competition' at all, rather it is simply as the name suggests a salon or gallery of themed images.

However in the case of our Salon on DPNow it has been made into a competition to add a little more interest and the addition of a small prize has added some incentive to that competition.

It should still very much be considered a fun thing though, and the competition and the rules should not be taken too seriously, unless as with the previous Salon specific restrictions are made by the curator.

The simple concept is though that the Winner becomes the curator and they decide a theme and a new winner. No arguments and therefore no discussion on whether the decision was the right one or not. This is what makes the whole thing fair, as the decision is the job of one person and their opinion is what counts. Also anyone who enters a half decent, imaginative image stands a good chance of winning and it need not be the most technically perfect or professional looking image either, as perhaps was shown by the winner of the last Salon.

In a sense then, there is no need for any further discussion on the Salon, as any changes to the concept as it is now will detract from that and it becomes something else.

Pol has said quite rightly (post 8 of this thread) that people should do there own thing if they want and start a theme in Eye of the Camera if competitions are not their thing or they don't want the 'stress' of feeling obliged to come up with something for the Salon. To lead from the front she has done just this with her Dog thread.

Personally I'd like peeps to make an effort and enter their best shot in order to keep the standard as high as possible, but this must include imaginative or innovative work as well.

I look forward to seeing many more entries in the current salon. We need someone to come up with a better one than mine at least, so I don't have to curate the next one

[Archangel]

Re: Stephens Diptych

Hi Stephen,

I agree with what everybody said about the competition in this thread.
I read all posts carefully before I posted mine and that is why there is one thing though that doesn't really make so much sense to me generally, which is:
From one side, we like and it is constructive to raise our standards, by posting better and better photos even in the Salon Competition section.
From the other side one person, the curator is picking the winner.
The question is: How many people really like that their very good photos entered to be judged by only one person (the curator)?

Personally I'd like peeps to make an effort and enter their best shot in order to keep the standard as high as possible, but this must include imaginative or innovative work as well.

If peeps do that as you suggest and is actually the right way to do, why then their best shot of their good effort has to by judged only by one person, the curator? Why not to be judged by more in order for their evaluation to be more subjective and or more constructive?
In other words they must have a reason and a good motive to enter their best shot.
We have very good examples in the "Photo Critique" and "Eye of the Camera" section that actually confirm what I'm saying.
For the same photo some people just like it a lot without any doubts, others have some light detail comments for correction and some others have objections of the way the photo was taken or other related comments.
Such a photo entered in a Salon Competition, what kind of luck it can have if only judged by one person?
The answer is: "Nobody Knows" as this might vary according to the curator's opinion. Or in other words a photo like this that it is generally a good photo might not ever be entered in a Salon competition just because of the fear the user has of his photo being judged by only one person.

Also, all the Salon Competitions started somehow like an idea.
That doesn't mean that they cannot be further developed or adjusted to better rules or higher standards or more fair judgements by more people than one.

Yes, the "Eye of the Camera" and the "Critique Section" are very helpful indeed and personally lately and prior to the exhibition I have to participate, I make a lot use of them as they might help me out to choose some extra photos for the artistic section that I will enter too.
These two sections are very constructive for one simple reason: more opinions from more people for just one photo and a much more objective judgement and a final conclusion.

Why not the same for the Salon competition? It is exactly like the photo exhibition that I will participate or like other photo exhibitions others have also participated.
One person can only show preference, 3 persons can show tendency, 10 persons can give an indication and 50 persons can make a fair a final judgement.
The more, the better and the more objective towards the final judgement.

Anyway...these were some thoughts generally for the Salon Competition.
Doesn't really mean that they should be adopted, but I think it would be nice if generally considered and in relation of how generally the Salon Competitions are run also in other related photographic websites.

Now let me see what is this new thread "For Comparisons Sake"


George

[lumix]

Re: Stephens Diptych

George you have obviously given this a lot of thought. I do agree that one judge can only reflect on his/hers personal taste and photographic knowledge. We do have a polling facility on this forum and I would like to see that put to good use regards the selecting of a winning entry. There is still the option for the winner to select the next theme. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable seeing results posted that showed how many votes each entry had received. This way the winner of the previous salon is relived of having to comment on the entries, removing all thoughts of creating bad feelings etc. One vote per registered user, plus leave Ian to decide who gets the prize, would remove any thoughts of cheating. If others feel like George, Pol, or myself, lets have a vote on it. Then others can make their feelings known anonymously.

[Archangel]

Re: Stephens Diptych

George you have obviously given this a lot of thought. I do agree that one judge can only reflect on his/hers personal taste and photographic knowledge. We do have a polling facility on this forum and I would like to see that put to good use regards the selecting of a winning entry. There is still the option for the winner to select the next theme. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable seeing results posted that showed how many votes each entry had received. This way the winner of the previous salon is relived of having to comment on the entries, removing all thoughts of creating bad feelings etc. One vote per registered user, plus leave Ian to decide who gets the prize, would remove any thoughts of cheating. If others feel like George, Pol, or myself, lets have a vote on it. Then others can make their feelings known anonymously.

Ron,

I felt saying my own opinion on this and stating my thoughts of how this can be more fair or more objective or more constructive, or however else it can be called.
I also feel that from discussing such things and apart from different opinions some improvement ideas can come out of this.
The worst thing it can happen is nothing to come out of such discussions but the possibilities are very low for that in my opinion. But certainly it won't harm the Salon to have other peoples opinions on this.
Whatever is to be decided for discussion, by the website (if decided) I'm more than glad to contribute my opinion and effort to make a good thing better, if possible.
And to be also fair, I have to recognize that DPNow, offers such opportunities and listens to peoples opinions from what I've seen so far.
So I think we should take this opportunity and don't hesitate, to make our community better and ready to operate efficiently as it grows more and more day by day.
So these suggestions might be proved very efficient when after sometime the Salon entries will climb up to more big numbers.
Can someone imagine a curator to have to choose between 100+ photos in the future in order to pick a winner and 2 runner ups?
And if nothing changes by that time and needs do so, do we really think how many objections might be raised then by other users on one man's opinion?
I'm glad that our opinions are aligned on this with the things you suggested too.
Actually I haven't seen any opinions heading the wrong way so far, but I would like to see more opinions with thoughts including future aspects like: Growing number of Salon participants.

George


George