Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

[Ian]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

This is one of the things that keeps that voice of mine nagging away. There are a million and one reports in the British media about the Hungary incident. Yes, Alonso was wrong. He shouldn't have done what he did. But only a very few reports acknowledge that the incident was precipitated by Hamilton disobeying his instructions - and most of those that do mention it only do so as a casual throwaway comment. Had Hamilton done as instructed/planned, the situation would never have occured and Alonso would not have stepped over the line. Hamilton was the one that caused the incident, yet it was Alonso who got penalised. No wonder things went from bad to worse.

Alonso is never going to get the appreciation he's looking for from McLaren. The only place he'll ever get that is Renault.

If we are talking about the delayed exit from the pit box to prevent Hamilton going for pole, here's my take:

Clearly the friction between the two entered new limits. So, if Hamilton sneakily ignored instructions re the running order - fair enough, that was a misdemeanour - a consequence of the competitive friction, but Alonso's response was - if we are to believe what we are told - much much worse - a) because it was a reaction to an event and so premeditated and b) because its direct consequence was much more serious, both for him and the team. All Hamilton's misdemeanour meant was - perhaps (and not proven) Alonso had one less fuel burn lap.

I keep on saying, Alonso has crushed all his team mates (an inexperienced Button included) and to suddenly be faced with Hamilton - who is at least as good as him, must have been like crashing into a brick wall. And the team's reluctance to give him more support than Hamilton just made it worse. Alonso's competitive instinct got the better of him and the rest is history. Considering how good his team mate was, I think Alonso's near miss of the championship should be viewed in a certain light. Alonso must be more than just gutted that he didn't retain the championship for a third successive year because he only missed it by a whisker despite having a team mate who was clearly in the same performance league and therefore had no help at all in his championship quest.

I don't at all condone some of the apparently silly things Alonso did, but if you look at it from his point of view, some understanding of his state of mind is pretty clear to me. It was a very unusual situation indeed.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

If we are talking about the delayed exit from the pit box to prevent Hamilton going for pole, here's my take:

Clearly the friction between the two entered new limits. So, if Hamilton sneakily ignored instructions re the running order - fair enough, that was a misdemeanour - a consequence of the competitive friction, but Alonso's response was - if we are to believe what we are told - much much worse - a) because it was a reaction to an event and so premeditated and b) because its direct consequence was much more serious, both for him and the team. All Hamilton's misdemeanour meant was - perhaps (and not proven) Alonso had one less fuel burn lap.

It's clear, though, that if Hamilton hadn't committed his (arguably lesser) misdemeanour, then Alonso would not have done what he did. The snowball was pushed down the hill by Hamilton, Alonso turned it into an avalanche. Without the former, the latter wouldn't have happened.

Ultimately, though, Ron Dennis shouldn't have allowed the situation between the two drivers to get so out of control. The antagonism between the two of them should have been resolved out of the car, not on the track like this. It seems that some resolution to the friction occurred behind-the-scenes in time for the last few races of the season because Alonso seemed to just give up trying to win. I'd be prepared to believe that it wasn't because he thought he couldn't, rather it's because he was doing what he'd been told to do. He's said as much. Maybe it's this cow-towing to authority that's the reason he's not been kicked out already? Bit of a shame to reign-in a double WDC, though.

I don't at all condone some of the apparently silly things Alonso did, but if you look at it from his point of view, some understanding of his state of mind is pretty clear to me. It was a very unusual situation indeed.

I'd agree with that. If both Alonso and Hamilton are still at McLaren next year, I can't see the situation being resolved. We don't need Alonso in an F1 car falling asleep at the wheel because he's been told not to fight.

[Bearface]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

This is one of the things that keeps that voice of mine nagging away. There are a million and one reports in the British media about the Hungary incident. Yes, Alonso was wrong. He shouldn't have done what he did. But only a very few reports acknowledge that the incident was precipitated by Hamilton disobeying his instructions - and most of those that do mention it only do so as a casual throwaway comment. Had Hamilton done as instructed/planned, the situation would never have occured and Alonso would not have stepped over the line. Hamilton was the one that caused the incident, yet it was Alonso who got penalised. No wonder things went from bad to worse.

Alonso is never going to get the appreciation he's looking for from McLaren. The only place he'll ever get that is Renault.

Appreciation? How much are they paying him compared to Hamilton.. Did he not have the most complete package on the grid in 2007.. Tell you what, I wish someone would show me that kind of appreciation! And if he does return to Renault, Pat Symonds and Sig. Briatore better have the car situation sorted, because based on this year's peformances, Alonso will be struggling to challenge beyond the mid-field.

I wasn't just referring to the pit-lane incident when I mentioned Hungary (although what Alonso did was inexcusable compared to Hamilton's mistake, which was motivated by competitiveness rather than malice...), I was also referring to the confrontation which followed, involving Alonso and Ron Dennis, in which Alonso openly threatened to inform the FIA of HIS involvement in the Stepneygate scandal, by virtue of his email correspondence with De La Rosa, who had himself been liaising with Coughlan regarding aspects of the Ferrari dossier.

Ok, so he eventually withdrew his threat (which was made in the first place because he was disgruntled at not having the No.1 status he felt he deserved...), but by then Ron had made the call to the FIA in an understandable bid to avoid being seen to be brushing such issues under the carpet......and it cost him and the team greatly. Alonso was the catalyst for the whole fine/ban fiasco and yet he couldn't even bring himself to show support for the team at the court hearing, let alone try to repair the relationship between himself and the team's senior management.

For me, this incident alone shows what kind of person Alonso is, but if you factor in his on-track tantrums and the comments he's made to the press, you have the blueprint for a particularly self-centred, calulating and - dare I say it - unpleasant individual. Briatore has hinted recently that he knows this from experience, but that Renault and it's management are better suited to dealing with such a temperament than McLaren are and that as such it's not really a problem. I'd say they're welcome to him, but rumours abound that he may be staying with McLaren, which just shows that he's quickly realising they're probably going to be the only team in 2008 to offer him a competitive, potentially championship-winning car, particularly as Ferrari (a team which I'm convinced he thought he could run to...) have closed the door until at least 2009, when Kimi's contract expires. Maybe next season he'll take McLaren's multi-million dollar salary, the superb car and the backing of one of the two foremost teams in the business and keep his ludicrous, puerile behaviour to himself...

[JSR]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

Appreciation? How much are they paying him compared to Hamilton.. Did he not have the most complete package on the grid in 2007.. Tell you what, I wish someone would show me that kind of appreciation! And if he does return to Renault, Pat Symonds and Sig. Briatore better have the car situation sorted, because based on this year's peformances, Alonso will be struggling to challenge beyond the mid-field.

Calm down, it's only a commercial...

The phrase I used was "the appreciation he's looking for". None of us know what's really going on behind the doors of McLaren, none of us know if the situation changed throughout the year. The only thing that can be said with as much certainty as anything else is that Alonso is clearly not happy with his treatment at McLaren. His standing at McLaren is never going to improve, so what's he still doing there?

[Bearface]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

Calm down, it's only a commercial...

The phrase I used was "the appreciation he's looking for". None of us know what's really going on behind the doors of McLaren, none of us know if the situation changed throughout the year. The only thing that can be said with as much certainty as anything else is that Alonso is clearly not happy with his treatment at McLaren. His standing at McLaren is never going to improve, so what's he still doing there?

It's pretty clear that Alonso assumed McLaren would give him priority status for 2007, particularly as he joined them as double world champion. Had he checked all this prior to the start of the season, the ensuing unpleasantness might've been avoided, but it appears that he didn't, and clearly it wasn't.

To cap it all, he ended up with a team-mate who quite clearly showed enormous talent from day one, and although Lewis lacked Fernando's experience and er.....maturity, he made up for the shortfall by demonstrating that he was often quicker. In an identical car. Obviously this distressed Alonso and he quickly realised that unless the team backed him fully as the team's hope for the 2007 title, he'd have to fight Lewis on equal terms and this was always going to be a problem for him, both because of Lewis' speed and because contrary to opinion, Alonso was not used to competing with team-mates on equal terms - he'd been the priority driver at Renault and as such had always enjoyed a psychological, as well as an equipment advantage, over his team-mates. When Button was his team-mate Alonso had all the new aero kit and engine enhancements, while Jenson had to "make do" with older, less competitive kit for most of the time. It was farcical, but Renault inflicted the same treatment on Giancarlo too, so at least their policy was consistent.

To be honest, I think he'll stay at McLaren (assuming he decides to...) for the reasons I've suggested; that he has no other championship-winning options for 2008. Renault could well give him the molly-coddling, emotional indulgence he craves, but right now they're not performing at the highest level, which as a former world champion, he'll feel he needs. Of course he'll have to completely change his attitude to McLaren (and the signs are already there.......he's been playing the PR game more convincingly of late) and get used to the reality of the team situation, but given that Ferrari is not an option, I can't really see he has any choice - it's either the warm, friendly bosom of Renault, or the chance (although with Lewis as a team-mate, he'll know it's only a chance!) to win the world championship for the third time.......

[JSR]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

To be honest, I think he'll stay at McLaren (assuming he decides to...) for the reasons I've suggested; that he has no other championship-winning options for 2008. Renault could well give him the molly-coddling, emotional indulgence he craves, but right now they're not performing at the highest level, which as a former world champion, he'll feel he needs. Of course he'll have to completely change his attitude to McLaren (and the signs are already there.......he's been playing the PR game more convincingly of late) and get used to the reality of the team situation, but given that Ferrari is not an option, I can't really see he has any choice - it's either the warm, friendly bosom of Renault, or the chance (although with Lewis as a team-mate, he'll know it's only a chance!) to win the world championship for the third time.......

I think you're probably right. The trouble I see is that by staying at McLaren and cow-towing to authority, Alonso can pretty much kiss his world championship career goodbye. We've seen hints of that already. He's not going to win the WDC at McLaren in 2008, it's never going to happen. He may just as well go to Renault (or someone else) and lose in a lesser car than to stay at McLaren and lose because he's not Lewis Hamilton.

Incidentally, back to the original post, the ITV website is now posting Bernie's comments about the reason for Lewis not winning. http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41194 He's adamant that "if" Ron Dennis hadn't switched Hamilton to a three-stop he would have won. Trouble is, there's more than one "if" in the WDC this year. This is, perhaps, the least of them. Some would say that Hamilton *should* have won the WDC long before this last race came up, and then the fuel-stop strategy and gearbox failure would have been such a huge irrelevance that we'd all be laughing about now. It didn't happen. From what I read, many of Hamilton's most ardent fans are saying "live and let live", so why can't Bernie?

[Bearface]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

I think you're probably right. The trouble I see is that by staying at McLaren and cow-towing to authority, Alonso can pretty much kiss his world championship career goodbye. We've seen hints of that already. He's not going to win the WDC at McLaren in 2008, it's never going to happen. He may just as well go to Renault (or someone else) and lose in a lesser car than to stay at McLaren and lose because he's not Lewis Hamilton.

I'm not sure I agree on this one. In fact I don't

Although this season has demonstrated that Lewis is the more gifted racer, Alonso's experience has pulled him level on numerous occasions and because they've both had the benefit of the best car on the grid (for most of the season, at least), it's probably accurate to say that they both had an equal shot at the championship; certainly they ended up with the same points tally.

Whatever I think of Ron Dennis, I believe that he's an honest team owner who takes his policy of driver equality very seriously. I don't for a second believe that he's favoured Lewis this season (even if he does have a closer bond with the younger driver) and if Alonso is still around next year, I think he'll approach things in exactly the same fashion. This being the case, Alonso has every chance of taking the championship if he can use his experience and consistency to his advantage; it's likely that Lewis will continue to make the odd mistake, after all. However this will require Alonso to stand up on his own two feet and earn his dollars like any other driver (instead of sulking like a six year-old because he isn't being given the status he believes befits a man of his "standing"...), but if he can grow up, he'll have the best car and the best team behind him. Who could ask for more?

The idea that Alonso would need to kowtow is therefore arguably wide of the mark. What he'll have to do is behave himself and stop undermining the team's integrity simply because he doesn't get his own way. If that's kowtowing, then pretty much every other driver on the grid is doing it. You could argue that for several million dollars a year, that isn't an unreasonable expectation from a team.

Incidentally, back to the original post, the ITV website is now posting Bernie's comments about the reason for Lewis not winning. http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41194 He's adamant that "if" Ron Dennis hadn't switched Hamilton to a three-stop he would have won. Trouble is, there's more than one "if" in the WDC this year. This is, perhaps, the least of them. Some would say that Hamilton *should* have won the WDC long before this last race came up, and then the fuel-stop strategy and gearbox failure would have been such a huge irrelevance that we'd all be laughing about now. It didn't happen. From what I read, many of Hamilton's most ardent fans are saying "live and let live", so why can't Bernie?

Like I said, he has nothing better to do.

It's ludicrous, not least because Lewis was the author of his own undoing in both the last race and the penultimate one. When Alonso made the pass, Lewis KNEW he'd still win the championship if he stayed put, but instead he came over all "Formula Ford" and rushed to re-take his team-mate. This, combined with his pit-lane run-off into the gravel-trap in China, was what cost him the championship, and not some minor aspect of the McLaren strategy in the final race. Ok, the details of what happened to his car in the last race are sketchy, but despite admitting that he didn't actually talk to Lewis, the reporter who claimed that he switched off his car's computer is adamant that it happened and that he has evidence. Look at it another way, McLaren are hardly going to admit that their Great New Talent was stupid enough to b*gger things up so idiotically, are they..? So a "gearbox issue" it is...

[JSR]

Re: Bombastic. Belligerent. Bernie...

The idea that Alonso would need to kowtow is therefore arguably wide of the mark. What he'll have to do is behave himself and stop undermining the team's integrity simply because he doesn't get his own way. If that's kowtowing, then pretty much every other driver on the grid is doing it. You could argue that for several million dollars a year, that isn't an unreasonable expectation from a team.

Not surprisingly, I disagree with your interpretation of this. In the last couple of races it was pretty clear that Alonso was not pushing as hard as he should/could have. When reports later quote Alonso as saying, and I quote:

"It is no secret that they did not help me. I ran the last few races with my feet and hands tied because I could not make any decisions. I had to do what the team said and as they said. Thus, it was difficult to make up points."

...then the only interpretation that I can take from this is that by forcing Alonso to do as he's told, to prevent him from using his experience and talent to make decisions, he stops giving the best performance. Why pay a driver "several million dollars a year" and then tie his hands to prevent him from winning? If Alonso is to face a whole year of having "feet and hands tied" then he'll have no chance of reaching the WDC. After all, a two-time WDC that's not allowed to use his experience will bring him squarely down to rookie-level and, on those terms, Lewis will win.

And also, when Ron Dennis said after the China race that they were racing against Alonso and not against Kimi after the China race, it's pretty clear that any claim of equality was nothing more than a pretence. Dennis has worked with Hamilton for over ten years, he's barely worked with Alonso for more than ten minutes. It's only right that he should favour their golden child that he's been grooming for over 10 years instead of the other driver who's no longer WDC. This is why Alonso will never be happy staying at McLaren and anyone who's expecting a smooth road inside the team in 2008 is deluding themselves.

Equality? I doubt it.