Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

[patmoore]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Coincidentally my brother just bought a laptop with Windows 8. He's equally disgusted with it and has gone with a shareware solution called Classic Shell.

BTW, I haven't been tempted to experiment with the Win 8 interface now that Start8 is working so well.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I fully respect negative reactions to Windows 8 but I also urge caution because it is a natural trait for us all to be negative about changes to something that already works well for us (Windows 7). It could be that it's just a matter of discovering the added benefits of Windows 8 over time. It could, of course, simply be that Windows 8 is really only in its element with touch-screens. I'm curious to see how my laptop's multi-touch touch-pad will fare with Windows 8; it could be a vital bridge between the two OSs.

Ian

[patmoore]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I've looked at a lot of reviews online. Professional reviewers seem to like it. A significant percentage of consumers find it a royal pain to use.

I'm never opposed to change. I bought an Apple IIc in the late 70s and a PC XT in the early 80s and have been dealing with countless machines and operating systems ever since. I'll keep dabbling with Win8 when time permits but for the present I have to conclude that at least for me it's not ready for prime time.

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

it is a natural trait for us all to be negative about changes to something that already works well for us (Windows 7).

The trouble is that a lot of people (myself included) are still on Windows XP. The change from Windows 7 to 8 is much, much, less significant than it is for those who need to change from Windows XP, as I understand it.

To those on Windows 7 - if you don't like Windows 8, you can rest assured that Windows 7 will still be supported in one fashion or another by Microsoft from now until 2020 (http://support.microsoft.com/lifecyc...lpha=Windows+7). That's another 8 years or so. Rest easy.

For those of us on Windows XP, final support ends in 2014 - in about 15 months time. We have no choice. We have to upgrade. We have no alternative - it's either Windows 8 or no-Windows. We have the biggest hurdle in front of us.

I have a bunch of old and second-hand laptops/netbooks here that just aren't capable of running the bloat that is Windows 8. If this is a sample of what Windows XP users have been using, then Windows 8 is going to be the biggest contribution to landfill for a long time. How many current Windows XP users can actually afford the expense of having to replace their system just because of Windows 8's bloat? We are in a triple-dip recession, aren't we? No one seems to consider both the financial and the environmental impact of the increasingly bloated nature of Windows.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

XP won't stop working after support ends. XP was officially replaced by Vista in 2006/7 - over five years ago, so you are getting very good value. Windows 7 is basically an enhanced version of Vista. It happens on all operating systems - one of our web servers needs an operating system upgrade because the version of Linux it has been running for the last five years is now 'end of life', Apple radically changed its operating system in 2001, etc.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

XP won't stop working after support ends. XP was officially replaced by Vista in 2006/7 - over five years ago, so you are getting very good value. Windows 7 is basically an enhanced version of Vista. It happens on all operating systems - one of our web servers needs an operating system upgrade because the version of Linux it has been running for the last five years is now 'end of life', Apple radically changed its operating system in 2001, etc.

Ian

This is what's wrong with our commercially-oriented society. My toaster doesn't require me to change its operating system, yet I'm expected to for my computer otherwise I'd risk security implications.

It's like the tail wagging the dog. Perfectly usable hardware is consigned to landfill just so that Microsoft can make an extra buck. And what do we say about it? "You're lucky to have used it for this long..."

Seems crazy to me.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have a clear-out and chuck six laptops, three netbooks, and two desktops in the tip, and then save up for the day when I can buy a Windows 8 system. I'm sure that makes sense.

[JSR]

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I received my new Vivobook today (see thread elsewhere) and, having used Windows 8 on a friend's non-touchscreen laptop, my first curiosity was if the touchscreen would improve the horrendous usability of Windows 8. Probably not surprisingly, it does. The experience is many times better with the touchscreen, and it's the only way the "tile UI" should be used. If Windows 8 is supplied on a non-touchscreen device, I think there needs to be a way to disable "tile mode" permanently (and return the start button) if the user so desires because it only makes sense with a touchscreen.

Only when you're using the touchscreen do you realise why the non-touchscreen Windows 8 experience is so bad - it's because you're forever spending too much time, effort, and thought on moving that mouse to the right place to do anything - whether it's from one tile to the next, or to the corner of the screen, or swiping about. Multi-touch on the touchpad is no substitute for the touchscreen. On the screen, much that is hidden behind the mystery of cryptic gestures on the touchpad is much more intuitive. Shrinking the tile screen, locating all the apps, etc - are all far more sensible. With a touch screen, you just touch what you're pointing to or drag what you want to move. There's no dragging the mouse to the side of the screen to click the corner or to haphazardly locate the charm bar, or trying to remember how many fingers are required and which gesture is expected to do something - you're just there doing it.

Even though this laptop is brand new, and Windows 8 is brand new, there were an awful lot of updates that needed to download and install when first turned on. I'm still installing updates now (I think it's almost done). This demonstrates another problem with the tile view. I was happily rearranging tiles and installing things, only to drop back to the desktop mode and discover that there's the update app sitting waiting for me to restart the machine - yet I didn't know it was waiting at all, because the tile UI kept it covered up.

One thing that continues to be noticeable is speed in "tile mode". Even though my Vivobook has a fairly competent i3 processor, it's amazing how long it takes for an app to start through the tile-UI mode. Click its tile, it enlarges to fill the screen, and you're sitting waiting for it to get on with it. In the meantime, you can't do anything else because it's filled the screen. In desktop mode, if you double-click a program, it's up and running in no time at all. And, if you are waiting for something (say, for a web-page to load), you can be getting on with something else while you wait - in another window. You can't do that in tile mode. You only get one window and, if you have to wait for it - you have to wait. There's nothing else you can do. This shouldn't be called "Windows 8" - it should be called "Window 8". I remember the uproar when Microsoft released "starter" editions of Windows that would only allow three programs to run at the same time - "tile UI" is even worse because you only get one program running at a time. On my Windows XP machine, I'm currently running about 10 windows side-by-side : DivX Converter, Qimage, two instances of AutoCAD, email, two browser windows, calculator, and notepad. I can't do that with "tile mode" on Windows 8. This is a backwards step, surely?

Having used Windows 8, albeit briefly, with and without a touchscreen, it feels very much like Microsoft have released an OS that falls between two stools. While trying to offer everything in one package, it does nothing particularly well. It forever feels like you're having to make compromises.

The only thing I can say for sure is that you won't enjoy Windows 8 much without a touchscreen. I am already 100% glad that I sacrificed performance for the touchscreen. I could have got an i5 processor, or a 17.3" screen for this price. I could have bought a Windows 8 laptop for not much over half the price I've spent on the Vivobook. Had I done so, I would be regretting it.

If you have a non-touchscreen device currently running Windows 7 competently, I'd have to recommend you stick with what you have - even though I've never used Windows 7 before. Only move up to Windows 8 when you have a touchscreen, because that's what it needs.

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I've been installing various software and hardware to my Windows 8 laptop over the last day or two. Some successes, some failures, and some in between.

Successes include quite a lot of software - incluing my portableapps. It seems like Qimage and my ColorMunki should be okay - I've installed them, but haven't done anything with them yet.

Failures include the almost total failure rate with scanners. My old A3 scanner isn't compatible, Windows 8 won't find my Canon LiDE scanner, and none of the scanners work on my Brother network printers. The only scanner I have got working is the one on my Brother USB printer. It took long enough just to find the scanning tool in Windows 8.

The "some in between" include Windows not doing its job when it does recognise hardware. For instance, it detected my Brother network printers but only installed generic drivers. It didn't tell me this - I only discovered it when I went to use Qimage and I wanted to set up my own ICC profiles. The generic drivers installed by Windows 8 do not have any advanced options to allow me to do this. I did find a better driver for one of my printers (MFC-295CN), but not for my A3 (MFC-5890CN). So I'm between two stools on that one.

I haven't yet tried my other printers (Epson and Samsung). Windows 8 did automatically detect my new Logitech wireless mouse & keyboard - although putting the dongle in my USB hub causes occasional erratic behaviour.

My laptop is also running fine with my Dell U2412 monitor (1920x1200), although I haven't profiled it yet so it's currently very bright.

I'm not having great success with the latest version of DivX Converter, but VLC is running okay. I've also installed PDF Creator (I don't think my version of Adobe Acrobat is likely to work). I don't think I'll have any success running my version of Photoshop Elements 6, but PagePlus X4 works okay, as does Softmaker Office. I haven't yet tried my older software - I'll cross those bridges when I come to it. As known from before, my versions of AutoCAD LT won't even begin to install, although Lotus Approach from 15 years ago installs & runs fine (it just crashes when printing).

It would be handy if anyone else who moves to Windows 8 could list what old software/hardware they have that installs and works okay, so that others have more information when they face the inevitable.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I wasn't very optimistic that an old Epson 1290 printer would work with Windows 7, especially because Epson offered no drivers but Windows did find a Microsoft driver. For your Canon scanner have you tried the Canon support facility? I would have thought a Windows 7 driver would work.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I haven't looked into the Canon support options yet. To be honest, I don't use that scanner much. Once you've used a network scanner, USB ones lose their sparkle. At least I can scan through to my Android phone, iPad, and iPod Touch, even if I can't scan through to Windows 8..!

It would have been nice for the A3 scanner to have some kind of driver. I don't know for sure that it doesn't, but it is quite old. I don't use it much, but occasionally it is nice to have a larger scanning area.

Does your 1290 have a proper driver, or just a generic one? I have a 1290S (and two 1400s, and an R1800) that I occasionally use with dye-sub inks so, like the Brother printers, I need to be able to use my own profiles. The generic Brother drivers didn't let me do that, so if Windows 8 only picks generic drivers for Epson, too, that'll be something else I'll have to look into.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Dye-sub inks? Do you mean pigmented inks?

My mother in law's 1290 runs off a Microsoft driver.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Dye-sub inks? Do you mean pigmented inks?

My mother in law's 1290 runs off a Microsoft driver.

Ian

No, I mean dye-sub - as in the kind of inks that can print to mugs.

I used to use Epson printers for that. The general preference these days is for Ricoh gel printers, but I'm having some success with Brother printers.

It's why I'm surrounded by printers here... It's also why I need to be able to turn off profiles in the driver so that I can use my custom profile through Qimage.

I did try third-party pigment inks in one of my Brother printers, but it didn't get on too well with them - too thick for the print system, I think.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I don't understand - dye-sub inks need to be heated. Do you print the ink onto the mugs and then heat them?

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I don't understand - dye-sub inks need to be heated. Do you print the ink onto the mugs and then heat them?

Ian

It's a transfer process. The inks print to paper, paper goes on item, item is heated so that inks transfer.

The inks mustn't be subject to heat before the final stage, so you can't use any printer with a thermal printhead (HP, Canon, Lexmark, etc.), only printers with piezo printheads will do.

Like pigment inks, dye-sub inks are thicker than regular dye-ink which makes them prone to clogging or similar. The current Ricoh printers use greater pressure, I believe, because they're designed for thicker "gel" ink in the first place. However, some Ricoh printers are prone to motherboard failures and Ricoh don't want to hear from you if you use third-party inks.