Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

[David Rayden]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Desktops/laptops are not mobile phones. I don't know why Microsoft thinks that they are.

Therein lies the nub of your comments, with which I agree.

I've been using computers since I first bought the Sinclair ZX-80, and I programmed at college on an ICL4130 with punch cards in machine code.

As a previous early adopter I have played with and wasted money on more gadgets and tech than I care to recall.

My wife and I use Android on a tablet and our phones, and that's a very suitable system for those devices. My wife will almost certainly ditch her laptop for the next generation Samsung note or small tablet. She's a user of media and social networking.

I want a desktop OS like Linux or Windows 7 - not a tablet style hide-everything system that controls how I work and makes decisions for me: there's enough of that on Windows 7 and, even with terabytes of storage and quad-core, I can only just live with them.

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

My wife and I use Android on a tablet and our phones, and that's a very suitable system for those devices. My wife will almost certainly ditch her laptop for the next generation Samsung note or small tablet. She's a user of media and social networking.

I can understand that. I initially had a phone stuck on Android 2.1. It was sluggish and most unsuitable compared to the equivalent Apple device. However, I recently bought a refurb 7" tablet running Android 4. The differences, while relatively subtle, have improved the experience no end. I was so impressed with the improved usability that I upgraded my phone to an Android 4 one very soon after. The phone has better hardware than the tablet and so the usability is improved even on that. Now I'm doing almost all of my social stuff (browsing, Facebook, emails, etc) everything on my Android phone - because that's what it's good at. My iPad hardly gets a look in now.

However, if I want to create something or do some "real work" (usually involving graphics/photos or CAD work), I'll use my desktop - because that's what it is good at.

I completely support Microsoft for bringing a Windows phone to the market - more competition means more choice for us users - the "metro" interface looks quite snazzy on a phone. But the desktop OS is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[Paul Cook Photography]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I want a desktop OS like Linux or Windows 7 - not a tablet style hide-everything system that controls how I work and makes decisions for me: there's enough of that on Windows 7 and, even with terabytes of storage and quad-core, I can only just live with them.

The thing is though, Windows 8 is fully customisable. Yes, when you install it you will no doubt have a lot of built in apps that you wont want or need, but they can be removed and/or replaced with apps and shortcuts that you don't need. The new OS is actually set up to allow users to create an OS to suit them, rather than following the standard layout and format that we have seen for years. Its more work (initially) than we are used to with previous incarnations, but its there to play around with.

When apple released the iphone/ipod touch/ipad and IOS, and Android came about, it was new and alien to what we were used to on phones. It came with apps that we never used and didnt need, but we downloaded and set up our phones and devices to be what we needed. Microsoft are simply following the same route

When it first was available to test and try out, the same things were said, but a few weeks down the line most folk got used to the interface and saw the benefits. Give it time, or revert to windows 7 (or drastically, go back to Xp), although eventually, everything changes

[Paul Cook Photography]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

However, if I want to create something or do some "real work" (usually involving graphics/photos or CAD work), I'll use my desktop - because that's what it is good at.

I completely support Microsoft for bringing a Windows phone to the market - more competition means more choice for us users - the "metro" interface looks quite snazzy on a phone. But the desktop OS is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

But Photoshop, MS Office, etc all work exactly the same on the new OS, and in theory should work faster as windows 8 is less resource hungry than Windows 7.

For most users, the difference is in the design and menu. Its like a Nikon user picking up a Canon. The buttons and menus are unusual, but they still do the same thing

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

But Photoshop, MS Office, etc all work exactly the same on the new OS, and in theory should work faster as windows 8 is less resource hungry than Windows 7.

I don't have Windows 7, so comparisons with that OS are of no use to me. What I have works on Windows XP and all previous versions of Windows back to 98/95.

I don't use Photoshop and MS Office, but I do use old versions of AutoCAD and Lotus Approach. AutoCAD is far too expensive to replace, and Lotus Approach has no replacement and so would take months of work and/or lots of money to convert to something else (if that's even possible). They have each worked fine on Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, and XP, though.

I also use quite a lot of other old software that I've collected over the years - most of which are unlikely to work well with Windows 8.

It's going to be far too expensive for me to switch to Windows 8. I'm going to head into a world of hurt when Microsoft stop supporting XP. If I resign myself to the inevitable of that, then I may as well look to some alternative that is (i) not as expensive, and (ii) that isn't likely to change in such a big way whenever Microsoft has another whim in a few years time.

[Paul Cook Photography]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

It shouldn't be there to obfuscate the simple tasks or to prevent you from continuing to use perfectly sound software and hardware that worked just fine on previous versions of that OS.

It isn't/doesn't

If hardware doesn't run on Windows 8 (at the moment) it is because the hardware manufacturer has not supplied an updated driver to microsoft for the inclusion of its new OS, or offers one on its own website (you may find though that a search on google might pick up a third party driver or alternative).

Similarly, any up to date software should run exactly as it did on previous incarnations of Windows. If it doesnt (like drivers), then you may need an update, or even a newer version.

In the same respect, i developed and designed an app for IOS 5. When IOS 6 came out, i had to make some changes to allow it to run smoothly (and better than it did on IOS 5). That was not the responsibility of Apple, it was mine alone. Microsoft cannot be held back on its own development to please those who dont like change, or for manufacturers that are slow on development.

One of my devices uses a graphics driver that was not supported by the development version of windows 8, and currently the manufacturer of the graphics card has no plans to update its drivers to the new system (strangely). However, in the full release of Windows 8, Microsoft have built in an update to allow users to run it on these devises. Without them doing the coding, my device would eventually useless (if i wanted to be up to date with my equipment and have them all running in sync). I can only hope Microsoft keep updating, or Intel get their act together in the future.

It may sound like i am sucking up to Microsoft, haha, but i actually use Macs and IOS devices for the majority of work

[Paul Cook Photography]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I don't have Windows 7, so comparisons with that OS are of no use to me. What I have works on Windows XP and all previous versions of Windows back to 98/95.

I don't use Photoshop and MS Office, but I do use old versions of AutoCAD and Lotus Approach. AutoCAD is far too expensive to replace, and Lotus Approach has no replacement and so would take months of work and/or lots of money to convert to something else (if that's even possible). They have each worked fine on Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, and XP, though.

I also use quite a lot of other old software that I've collected over the years - most of which are unlikely to work well with Windows 8.

It's going to be far too expensive for me to switch to Windows 8. I'm going to head into a world of hurt when Microsoft stop supporting XP. If I resign myself to the inevitable of that, then I may as well look to some alternative that is (i) not as expensive, and (ii) that isn't likely to change in such a big way whenever Microsoft has another whim in a few years time.

Obviously in your situation then it would be silly to upgrade, but as i have said in another reply, that is not the fault of Microsoft and Windows 8. If the software was still supported, then it wouldnt be an issue. But ultimately it is a software issue you have and not an OS issue. Remember that XP is getting old (in development terms) and one day it wont be supported. I remember just finishing a course in system security and development when we studied XP and back to 98. The next year, that qualification was useless as the current standard was 2000 server, XP and (eww) Vista. We have since had windows 7 and 8 and many service packs on earlier systems just so they can still cope with modern computing standards

It is strange though to see how many people still cling to XP. A system that wasnt initially designed for modern media (hence its early system packs not supporting now common file extensions, video editing, etc)

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Obviously in your situation then it would be silly to upgrade, but as i have said in another reply, that is not the fault of Microsoft and Windows 8. If the software was still supported, then it wouldnt be an issue. But ultimately it is a software issue you have and not an OS issue. Remember that XP is getting old (in development terms) and one day it wont be supported. I remember just finishing a course in system security and development when we studied XP and back to 98. The next year, that qualification was useless as the current standard was 2000 server, XP and (eww) Vista

It is strange though to see how many people still cling to XP. A system that wasnt initially designed for modern media (hence its early system packs not supporting now common file extensions, video editing, etc)

As mentioned before, my main gripe is the same as it's always been for Windows. It's meant to be an OS - a system that enables hardware and software to work together. If that hardware and software have been working together just fine for many years and then it suddenly isn't, then I can't just think "okay, I'll buy the newer versions". In this climate of austerity, it's wrong to expect all Windows users to do this just on Microsoft's whim.

Ironically, I'm not the world's biggest XP fan anyway. I was happy with Windows 98SE - when the operating system was just a couple of hundred megabytes. As soon as Windows started demanding ever faster processors and whopping great GBs of disk space, when it offered little that was new or better than before, I started to gripe. And I'll continue to gripe until there's a suitable alternative that isn't like this (yep, I'll be griping for many a long year... ).

[Paul Cook Photography]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

As mentioned before, my main gripe is the same as it's always been for Windows. It's meant to be an OS - a system that enables hardware and software to work together. If that hardware and software have been working together just fine for many years and then it suddenly isn't, then I can't just think "okay, I'll buy the newer versions". In this climate of austerity, it's wrong to expect all Windows users to do this just on Microsoft's whim.

Ironically, I'm not the world's biggest XP fan anyway. I was happy with Windows 98SE - when the operating system was just a couple of hundred megabytes. As soon as Windows started demanding ever faster processors and whopping great GBs of disk space, when it offered little that was new or better than before, I started to gripe. And I'll continue to gripe until there's a suitable alternative that isn't like this (yep, I'll be griping for many a long year... ).

lol, fair enough

But then when you cant do something with your software that the latest version does (that only runs on a newer OS), who do you gripe to?

I was an early Photoshop user back in '99. What i do now is not possible back in that version. Yes, i could probably still use CS3 or maybe earlier, but things are easier and better on CS6. There is no way i could run that on Windows 98. Not just because of the OS, but because of graphic drivers, drivers for Wacom tablets, printer drivers, etc no longer supporting earlier MS OS

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

But then when you cant do something with your software that the latest version does (that only runs on a newer OS), who do you gripe to?

I don't know, I don't think I've ever been in the position of being able to obtain new enough software to be aware of the things I couldn't do in the version I was using. (If that makes sense!) I've been using the same version of AutoCAD and Lotus for over 12 years and haven't been aware of missing out on something.

I suspect that, in the long term, we are going to find tablet type devices with the likes of Android and even iOS becoming more and more capable - and Windows will just be left behind as the "Web OS" of operating systems. They'll no longer have the niche of traditional desktop/laptop that they've had for so long, and they always be lagging behind the likes of Android and iOS.

By way of some examples, we're already in the position of having a decent full Office suite available for a sensible price for Android (Softmaker Office) - I would never buy into Microsoft Office again. Autodesk have made available AutoCAD WS as a free app for iOS and Android, meaning that I can do some basic CAD work on those devices that I am unable to do on Windows 8 because I couldn't afford the updated software. Each of these things encourage me to use my mobile devices and persuade me away from Windows. Even if they do become available on Windows' mobile offering, I wouldn't buy into Windows just to use them because there is no advantage in my mind to do so.

As mobile devices become more powerful and the operating systems become more flexible, then they may well eventually replace the traditional way of doing things (as you've said in a previous post). We're not there yet, though - mobile devices are far more geared towards media consumption than media creation. I think Microsoft have been too quick to jump the gun.

But I could be wrong. By the time Windows XP users are forced out of XP, the market may well be a different place and Microsoft may well be proven right.

[Paul Cook Photography]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I think Microsoft have been too quick to jump the gun.

Yeah, i guess you are right. I mean look at the major competitors (apple and android) that jumped the gun a few years ago and made an integrated interface for their devices and a platform for all the major software developers. They got nowhere ;p

(and yes, i know Apple do not have the same OS on their laptops as they do on their phones and ipads, but everything syncs, and many devices also run microsoft files, but look out shortly).

Really not sure its jumping the gun, but more like bolting the door after

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Yeah, i guess you are right. I mean look at the major competitors (apple and android) that jumped the gun a few years ago and made an integrated interface for their devices and a platform for all the major software developers. They got nowhere ;p

(and yes, i know Apple do not have the same OS on their laptops as they do on their phones and ipads, but everything syncs, and many devices also run microsoft files, but look out shortly).

Really not sure its jumping the gun, but more like bolting the door after

I don't know if it was your intention to purposefully reply out of context but, given I've already expressed my support for Microsoft supporting the phone platform, I'll presume it was.

My "jumping the gun" remark wasn't in regard to having a mobile phone OS, but in regard to them apparently abandoning their long-standing traditional desktop OS userbase. I'm sure you can correct my misconception but I didn't think Apple abandoned their traditional desktop userbase when they created iOS several years ago.

Likewise, Google didn't have a long-standing desktop OS userbase when they first produced Android. We are seeing Android being put on devices that could be used on the desktop or as laptops today, but they're very much a kludge based on hardware manufacturers/sellers believing people will "buy anything" so long as it can play Angry Birds.

In short, Apple didn't do what Microsoft are doing and Google couldn't do what Microsoft are doing, so your comparisons don't really work.

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I ran into another issue with my friend's Windows 8 laptop today.

I thought I would take the opportunity to try out a Linux Live CD on her new hardware. This is usually an easy task of popping in the CD, boot it to Linux, do what I want to do, then reboot and remove the CD to boot Windows.

Not any more.

Despite having the boot sequence set to boot the CD before the HDD (through a tool Toshiba provide in Windows), the laptop would not boot to the CD at all. I checked the BIOS to confirm that the CD was set to boot first, which it was, but it still went straight to Windows 8.

Over an hour of searching the internet revealed a hitherto unknown (by me) trick by Microsoft called the "UEFI". UEFI is a BIOS-replacement intended to be more secure than the old BIOS. The trick is that it will only boot a system that's signed by a "key". As your Linux Live CD will not be signed by any such key, you can't boot to it. The *only* thing you can boot is Windows 8 (don't think of downgrading to Windows XP to run your old hardware/software - because UEFI won't boot that either).

Fortunately this laptop does have a setting to disable UEFI in the old-fashioned BIOS. I did this and the Linux LiveCD booted as it normally would. I did what I wanted to do with Linux, and then shut down. I took the CD out and rebooted, expecting Windows 8 to now boot. But, no. No joy. Windows 8 will *only* boot if UEFI is enabled. While a LiveCD will *only* boot if it's disabled. What was once a simple system of trying out a different OS has been crippled.

From what I've read, Microsoft currently demand that OEMs implement UEFI before they can sell PCs/laptops with Windows 8 on them. If they don't do this, they can't install Windows 8. Naturally, all OEMs are going to implement UEFI if they don't want to be denied Windows 8. While those hardware vendors can offer the UEFI keys to other OSes, there's no requirement for them to do so. There are a lot of Linux distros out there, and many of those are modified by others, and these will not be able to run on a platform with UEFI. There is no requirement for both UEFI and a traditional BIOS on the same machine. In the future there will only be UEFI - you won't have the traditional BIOS, so you won't be able to disable UEFI.

I understand that the Linux Foundation are trying to implement a "fix" to get around UEFI, but it doesn't look like it'll work for LiveCDs. I hope that they work out a proper fix for all Linux distros sooner rather than later. Until they do, be wary of what you buy when buying a Windows 8 PC/laptop.

[TheBull1875]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

It is starting to grow on me. I have put it on my desktop but not yet on my laptop.

[David Rayden]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

<Snip>From what I've read, Microsoft currently demand that OEMs implement UEFI before they can sell PCs/laptops with Windows 8 on them. If they don't do this, they can't install Windows 8. Naturally, all OEMs are going to implement UEFI if they don't want to be denied Windows 8. <Snip>

...which should be against so many 'monopoly' or 'cartel' laws, but somehow it isn't. This is probably agreed by governmnets as they are, in fact, afraid of freedom of information and want to control how/when/what we see.