Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

...which should be against so many 'monopoly' or 'cartel' laws, but somehow it isn't. This is probably agreed by governmnets as they are, in fact, afraid of freedom of information and want to control how/when/what we see.

I believe they would say (i) it's to increase security when used with Windows 8, and (ii) other OSes can obtain a "key".

So they couldn't be accused of monopolistic practices, only of making it more difficult for "free" OSes.

What I suppose is really required is for some common/popular Linux distros to partner with a PC/laptop outlet to supply the distro pre-installed (without UEFI). That would allow you to put any other Linux distro on it that you wanted. I imagine that the ChromeBook is similar to this arrangement (if I understand the device correctly, it's a version of Linux on a netbook with the backing of Google).

I, personally, find that one of Linux's greatest strengths is in the ability to run it from a USB stick or CD without having to mess about with the installed OS on the computer. That's the key thing that could end up being denied to us now.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I have been reading this thread with interest.

First of all - the Windows 8 tile-style user interface; you can if you like regard this as an evolution of the old Start button and menu (the start button has now gone) plus a bit of the desktop and its gadget apps. But beyond that, for traditional Windows applications software it is fundamentally just as it was.

Microsoft can't stand still and ignore what is going on around it. The basic idea of the old Windows user interface (including Windows 7) is essentially the same as the first Windows, Icons, Mice, Pointers (WIMP) UI going back to the mid-1980s (even earlier in research labs). Microsoft has been promoting touch-screens on desktops as well as notebooks for years before the iPad and iPhone/iPod Touch came out. Apple, admittedly, did it better - first for small hand-held devices like the iPod Touch and iPhone and later the iPad. Notably, Apple has not even hinted that it intends to add touch-screen functionality to laptops or desktops even though there is considerable demand for add-ons to virtually turn iPads in to laptops and Windows touch screen PCs are selling in quite large numbers. I have owned two touch screen Windows laptops - the first bought in 2006.

Microsoft has been working on its tile-based UI for a long time and debuted the concept with its Windows smartphones two years ago. Windows RT is a development of the smartphone system designed for ARM-based tablet hardware. I'm pretty sure that Windows 8 apps run in an interpreted language/execution system and so are hardware independent, so Windows 8 apps will run on Windows 8 PCs and tablets running Intel processors as well as ARM-based Windows RT tablets and Windows 8 smartphones, or at least with minor differences and to all intents and purposes this will be transparent to the user. But most Windows 8 apps will be pretty small and lightweight compared to the giant suites that have evolved for Windows over the years, like Adobe Creative Suite, Microsoft Office, etc. So Windows 8 Intel-platform users will have the best of both worlds - slick and easy to use apps and the big and heavy-hitting programs from traditional Windows. It makes complete sense to harmonise Windows 8 across ARM-based tablets and smartphones as well as traditional Intel-based hardware. Google is doing the same with its Google Chrome-based PCs, although I think their approach is arguably over-simpistic.

Let's get a few things straight about UEFI - this is an independent body which has been in existence since 2005, I think. It's origin was Intel, not Microsoft, and as is common for such entities it was spun out as in independent body in order for it to be able to establish itself as a universal solution standard setter. Apple implements UEFI standards in its Intel computers and there are several Linux flavours out there that are UEFI-compliant.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Perhaps the main problem, then, is lack of easily-available information.

Everything I've read has said that programmes on Windows 8 PCs/laptops will not run on Windows 8 RT tablets - an incompatibility between x86 (PCs/laptops) and ARM (tablets) or something. Even with existing tablet/smartphone platforms, there are apps that will run on one but not the other even if they run the same iOS/Android - so expecting software for one Windows 8 platform to run on the other is, I'd think, one expectation too far.

I hadn't heard anything about UEFI before the other day, and I ended up spending the best part of two hours trying to figure out why this laptop would not boot my Puppy Linux CD. When you are able to disable UEFI in order to boot your LiveCD, you then can't boot back to Windows 8 without re-enabling UEFI. If the laptop hadn't had the traditional BIOS as well as UEFI, there would have been no way to boot anything except Windows 8.

It just feels so much like we're being dictated to about what we can run on our perfectly legitimately bought computer systems.

Ultimately, if owning a Windows computer in the future is going to mean so much in the way of upheavals, then I think many people would be advised to look for an alternative. All those people who use their computers for social networking and media consumption would be better off abandoning Windows and stick with a much simpler, and cheaper, tablet.

The only reason I haven't seriously looked into the alternatives (like Mac and Linux) in the past is because the upheaval to move from Windows would be too great. However, if there is going to be that kind of upheaval when I'm required to move away from Windows XP in a year or two's time, then I think I'd be wise to steer away from Windows altogether.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Just to recap - the idea is that Windows 8 apps from the Windows 8 app store should run on Windows 8 Intel PCs, Windows RT ARM-based tablets and Windows 8 phones. Traditional Intel PC programs that run on Windows 7 and earlier, like MS Office, Photoshop Elements or CS, etc. won't run on RT devices nor Windows 8 smartphones.

As I understand it, UEFI implementations usually include an element of backwards compatibility (BIOS) for just such instances as yours - indeed what you saw as a BIOS may actually be part of the 'EFI'.

A BIOS is an incredibly important part of a PC architecture and it is also a security vulnerability, so in the end it's no surprise that the industry is moving away from it. Change always causes problems but in the long run change is usually for the better.

I'm sure users like yourself will find problems at this early stage, but they will surely be addressed in the end.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Just to recap - the idea is that Windows 8 apps from the Windows 8 app store should run on Windows 8 Intel PCs, Windows RT ARM-based tablets and Windows 8 phones. Traditional Intel PC programs that run on Windows 7 and earlier, like MS Office, Photoshop Elements or CS, etc. won't run on RT devices nor Windows 8 smartphones.

This is pretty much the core issue as far as Windows as an OS is concerned for me. I've stuck with Windows for so long simply because I have software and hardware that's been with me since Windows 95/98. If, for whatever reason, these are not able to run on Windows 8 (and, okay, I accept that the march of commercialism can't stand still if these big corporations want to be around tomorrow) and I end up having to replace them at some expense, then I see little reason why I should be trying to remain in the "Windows camp".

Windows always has been and always was the "easy option". Even when subsequent versions of the OS came out, sticking with the familiar Windows environment was always the "easy option". If, with Windows 8 and Microsoft's vision for the future, Windows won't be the "easy option" any more - by virtue of incompatibilities, hidden settings, inability to boot from CDs/USB, and ultimately having to move to apps - then there seems to be no sensible reason to remain on that platform.

To switch to a non-Windows platform was always too much hassle but if remaining on the Windows platform looks likely to be just as much hassle, then I've got to ask why I should stick with it.

As I understand it, UEFI implementations usually include an element of backwards compatibility (BIOS) for just such instances as yours - indeed what you saw as a BIOS may actually be part of the 'EFI'.

After eventually getting into the BIOS (the laptop manufacturer didn't make it easy and, when I searched the support forums, someone had asked the same question and got a very dismissive "you shouldn't be doing that anyway" from the OEM), UEFI is just one setting. I don't think it was actually called "UEFI", just "security" or something like that (I can't recall now, I was just trying everything).

Reading up on UEFI makes it clear that it is intended to be a replacement for the BIOS - so, ultimately, there will be no way to disable it when we want to boot from CD/USB. I read posts from many people on the OEM's support forum pretty much begging that they don't remove the ability to turn off UEFI - so it's something that clearly concerns an awful lot of people.

A BIOS is an incredibly important part of a PC architecture and it is also a security vulnerability, so in the end it's no surprise that the industry is moving away from it. Change always causes problems but in the long run change is usually for the better.

I do wonder how we've managed to survive this long without UEFI. Surprised the IT world hasn't succumbed to meltdown years ago...

I'm sure users like yourself will find problems at this early stage, but they will surely be addressed in the end.

To users like me, Windows 8 is the opposite of the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Windows wasn't broke, but they fixed it anyway - thus changing it from what was the easiest and most convenient computing platform into something that could very well drive people away from it. If we consider Windows 8 as being a window on Microsoft's vision of the future, I shudder to think what Windows 9 and Windows 10 might be like. If their intention is to dissolve the established Windows userbase and just focus on competing with Apple iOS and Android, I have serious doubts as to how many more versions of Windows there will actually be.

Nevertheless, I'm sure they know what they're doing.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I don't believe for a minute that Microsoft want to make applications for Windows 7 and earlier (to a point) obsolete. But such applications are very much tied to Intel-compatible processors and the architectures of such processors means they will never be competitive in smartphones and, arguably, tablets, because they consume too much power for battery operation comparable to ARM-based devices.

And to be honest I want the battery-draining power for intensive operations that Intel PCs offer - my quad core Intel Core i7 laptop has hugely more power than the most powerful ARM-based multi-core tablet.

It remains to be seen how Intel-based Windows 8 tablets like the Microsoft Surface (which appear to be slimline touch-screen laptops with removable keyboards) work under battery power when running Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 in full tilt rendering 1080HD video!

Windows wasn't broke? Well, maybe not, but I stayed loyal to Windows XP for a long time and I could not now honestly go back to it with any enthusiasm because Windows 7 is so much better. As was the case when XP replaced Windows 98, etc.

Ian

PS I have been invited to a Microsoft-hosted Windows 8 workshop that addresses photography applications later this week. I'll be reporting back!

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Windows wasn't broke? Well, maybe not, but I stayed loyal to Windows XP for a long time and I could not now honestly go back to it with any enthusiasm because Windows 7 is so much better. As was the case when XP replaced Windows 98, etc.

You may say that but I don't see it. I've never used Windows 7 and only switched to XP when I had no choice. 98SE was doing just fine for me and some of my software still works better when I run 98SE in a virtual machine or via an old laptop. As someone who hasn't used Windows 7, I don't get what it is that I'm missing so badly with XP that I simply must upgrade - and, certainly, Windows 8 looks to be a downgrade simply because it makes the things I do easily on XP so much more difficult or harder to get to.

I used the phrase "wasn't broke" because Windows always had the convenience of being able to run any hardware just by installing the driver, and had a vast array of software that could just be installed and run. While the Linux camp were forever extolling the virtues of free OS over Windows, it was always a real PITB just to try and print something. That was never going to take off.

My main reason for avoiding looking seriously at Linux previously was because of the hideous difficulty of just getting it to print and to scan. In recent months/years, this is something that has become much easier thanks to the wide Linux community of volunteers who figure out how to get these things working and then release the "fix" for free on the appropriate forum.

Having seen how difficult it was to get Windows 8 to install one of our HP printers, it seems that, in this regard, Linux has taken two steps forward while Windows has taken one step back. How is it that I can run more of my hardware on Linux than Windows 8? That's crazy.

If I could get decent CAD software on Linux, and half-decent ICC aware printing software, then you probably wouldn't see me near Windows for dust.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

The Windows 8 workshop for later this week has been cancelled

I did spend the evening using a Nokia Lumia 920 Windows phone and it's not bad at all, although I am too dedicated to Android to persuade me to change at this point. I have the Lumia 920 to try for a few weeks so look out for some photos, etc.

I have decided to go ahead and upgrade my laptop to Windows 8; I need to be au-fait with Windows 8 in a practical sense. At least the upgrade price is very reasonable.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

As you're coming from Windows 7 and that you've experienced Windows on the phone, you'll probably be right at home with a Windows 8 upgrade (upgrading an old machine won't require UEFI for one thing).

It's only the shock of replacing an XP machine with a new 8 one that'll catch people out.

[escallonia]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Updated to windows 8 yesterday very pleased connected my printer pixma 4000 driver updated by windows 8 no searching John.

[patmoore]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Okay, over the years I've used DOS, Windows 3.1, 95, NT, Millenium, 2000, XP, Vista 64, and 7. With each revision I lose the ability to run some earlier programs. My current four PCs have 3 different operating systems. I'm considering a new machine but I'm a little gunshy about Windows 8. MS FrontPage is no longer supported by Microsoft and I use it a lot. It doesn't work well with my Windows 7 machines and probably will not work at all with 8. I do have Dreamweaver too but frankly find it very difficult to use and I don't have the time to devote to learning it properly.

On the other hand, it's Black Friday here in the states and today's probably a good day to get a new machine.

[patmoore]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Okay, my Vista 64 bit machine is on its last legs. It took a dozen reboots to coax it back into life so I bit the bullet and bought a new HP desktop with Windows 8. First thing I discovered was that the touch screen doesn't work unless you have a compatible monitor. I run a dual monitor setup and refuse to replace them. First the good news: Win 8 immediately identified my wireless Epson Artisan 1430 printer and connected to it flawlessly.

That's about the end of the good news. I find the interface cumbersome and awkward to navigate. Locating a program takes several steps. Once a program is open, there is no intuitive way to minimize or close it. The TILES screen gets rapidly overloaded with programs and necessitates scrolling right and left to make everything visible. Undoubtedly, I'm missing some vital shortcuts that will make the experience easier but doing a bit of research online reveals that I'm not alone in my disappointment.

I discovered that there are least three aftermarket products that will restore the START button. A couple of them are free but the one with the best reviews is START8 and sells for $5.00. I downloaded it a few hours ago and am MUCH happier. I still have access to the Win 8 interface and will continue to experiment with it but from a productivity standpoint I'll go with the traditional desktop that START8 provides.

[TheBull1875]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Pat, I know I should not have but honestly could not help myself giggling. Then again I guess it is only apparent if you actually think of these things but I would have thought it obvious that a non touch screen monitor would not work as a touch screen :-). Don't mean that nasty mate.

[Ian]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

Okay, my Vista 64 bit machine is on its last legs. It took a dozen reboots to coax it back into life so I bit the bullet and bought a new HP desktop with Windows 8. First thing I discovered was that the touch screen doesn't work unless you have a compatible monitor. I run a dual monitor setup and refuse to replace them. First the good news: Win 8 immediately identified my wireless Epson Artisan 1430 printer and connected to it flawlessly.

That's about the end of the good news. I find the interface cumbersome and awkward to navigate. Locating a program takes several steps. Once a program is open, there is no intuitive way to minimize or close it. The TILES screen gets rapidly overloaded with programs and necessitates scrolling right and left to make everything visible. Undoubtedly, I'm missing some vital shortcuts that will make the experience easier but doing a bit of research online reveals that I'm not alone in my disappointment.

I discovered that there are least three aftermarket products that will restore the START button. A couple of them are free but the one with the best reviews is START8 and sells for $5.00. I downloaded it a few hours ago and am MUCH happier. I still have access to the Win 8 interface and will continue to experiment with it but from a productivity standpoint I'll go with the traditional desktop that START8 provides.

Thanks for that, Pat - very interesting. Expecting to update my laptop shortly. I wonder if its multi-touch mouse pad will help?

Ian

[escallonia]

Re: Windows 8 - anyone here tried it, or thinking about it?

I had a horrible experience Two days ago with my connection to the Internet, No connection showed up I went through all the Dialog boxes on set up but no joy then I found out that my hardware had failed. by that time I was so frustrated I went to bed! Early next morning I woke up at 4am switched on computer and tried the diagnostics and settings came up with flight mode ON and OFF and it showed on I clicked to OFF and immediately I had a Internet connection problem solved. this information may help some one that has the same problem regards John.