different print shades from 2 programs

[BrianMaxted]

Can anyone help me.
I use Photoshop to manipulate but normally ACDSee to select and print my images. I use an Epson Stylus Photo R800 printer. Ever since I have had the R800 I have been concerned that prints obtained through any program were too light. (When printing CD/DVD discs I have printed twice to get a better depth). Even items scanned were lighter than the original. Then by chance I printed an image through Photoshop and found that it was darker - in fact too dark. I have never entered (to my knowledge) any printer profiles and maybe I need too!
I would be grateful if anyone could solve this mystery for me.
Brian

[Patrick]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Can anyone help me.
I use Photoshop to manipulate but normally ACDSee to select and print my images. I use an Epson Stylus Photo R800 printer. Ever since I have had the R800 I have been concerned that prints obtained through any program were too light. (When printing CD/DVD discs I have printed twice to get a better depth). Even items scanned were lighter than the original. Then by chance I printed an image through Photoshop and found that it was darker - in fact too dark. I have never entered (to my knowledge) any printer profiles and maybe I need too!
I would be grateful if anyone could solve this mystery for me.
Brian

Hi Brian
Profiles are the answer, but first before we go to that, one or two questions.
1. Is your Monitor profiled?
2 Do you use Epson inks or thitd party or indeed any inks that are easiest to get?
3. What setting did you use printing from photoshop? Can't help you with ACDsee don't use it.

Answer best you can and we can move on from there.

Patrick

[BrianMaxted]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Thanks for your interest Patrick
1. I do not know if the monitors are profiled. I use 2 (mostly for film editing)the main one is an Apple 20 Cinema display (flat) and the other is an iiyama Master Pro 450(conventional).
2. I use third party inks from a consistant source.
3. I just use the settings appropriate to the paper ie photo for good quality plain paper aand best photo for photo paper but no print options except print review (sometimes with borderless checked). I do not normally use advanced but have just looked and high speed/edge smoothing is checked, colour controls checked, Colour mode=Epson Vivid, All controls at 0. This setting stays the same for both print variations
For ACDSee read any other print source say from a microsoft file source or even a scanned source the image is light. THE SAME FILE/IMAGE prints substantially darker through Photoshop.
Brian

rough Hi Brian
Profiles are the answer, but first before we go to that, one or two questions.
1. Is your Monitor profiled?
2 Do you use Epson inks or thitd party or indeed any inks that are easiest to get?
3. What setting did you use printing from photoshop? Can't help you with ACDsee don't use it.

Answer best you can and we can move on from there.

Patrick

[Patrick]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Thanks for your interest Patrick
1. I do not know if the monitors are profiled. I use 2 (mostly for film editing)the main one is an Apple 20 Cinema display (flat) and the other is an iiyama Master Pro 450(conventional).
2. I use third party inks from a consistant source.
3. I just use the settings appropriate to the paper ie photo for good quality plain paper aand best photo for photo paper but no print options except print review (sometimes with borderless checked). I do not normally use advanced but have just looked and high speed/edge smoothing is checked, colour controls checked, Colour mode=Epson Vivid, All controls at 0. This setting stays the same for both print variations
For ACDSee read any other print source say from a microsoft file source or even a scanned source the image is light. THE SAME FILE/IMAGE prints substantially darker through Photoshop.
Brian

Hi
If you don't know if your monitors are profiled and you bought from new the odds are they are not. First step is to get them profiled, this is the single most important profile for printing, your monitor.
If you have no means of profiling then Adobe gamma can get you a roughly accurate displays. Both monitors should if correctly profiled look if not identical very very close.
You want a situation that you print what you see.
Third party inks render slightly different colours to genuine Epsom inks making print profiles just a little more important, but good paper manufacturers do supply free custom profiles for you.
When using Photoshop you must select "Let Photoshop manage colours" and disable colour management within the printer software. Allowing the printer to manage colours leads to over dark prints.

I we get back to you further when I have more time I am off out to a Photo Club to do a talk now.

Patrick

[BrianMaxted]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Hi
If you don't know if your monitors are profiled and you bought from new the odds are they are not. First step is to get them profiled, this is the single most important profile for printing, your monitor.
If you have no means of profiling then Adobe gamma can get you a roughly accurate displays. Both monitors should if correctly profiled look if not identical very very close.
You want a situation that you print what you see.
Third party inks render slightly different colours to genuine Epsom inks making print profiles just a little more important, but good paper manufacturers do supply free custom profiles for you.
When using Photoshop you must select "Let Photoshop manage colours" and disable colour management within the printer software. Allowing the printer to manage colours leads to over dark prints.

I we get back to you further when I have more time I am off out to a Photo Club to do a talk now.

Patrick

Patrick
Thanks for all you help with my variable print colous using different software.
I wasn't sure whether I was wairing for you or you for me.
I have not yet profiled the monitors as I do not know how to go about this.
I did try to "Let Photoshop manage colours" but I clearly must have missed something as the print from Photoshop was still as dark (as the others were light).
Hope you can still help .
Very best wishes
Brian

[Patrick]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Patrick
Thanks for all you help with my variable print colous using different software.
I wasn't sure whether I was wairing for you or you for me.
I have not yet profiled the monitors as I do not know how to go about this.
I did try to "Let Photoshop manage colours" but I clearly must have missed something as the print from Photoshop was still as dark (as the others were light).
Hope you can still help .
Very best wishes
Brian

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/talkshop/CM...nt%20Intro.htm this will give you an insight if nothing else as to what's it all about.
Unfortunately newer versions no longer include Adobe Gamma which is a pity it is capable of doing a reasonable job, even though it relies on the eyesight of the user which is not always perfect.
In the absence of Adobe Gamma try this website http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ it puts you through a number of exercises similar to Adobe Gamma. Looking at this it is more comprehensive than Adobe Gamma.

Let me know how you get on.

Patrick

[rogleale]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Brian,
I don't know which OS you are using or even it is on PC or Mac. If you are using Windows 7 there is a quite competent screen calibrator built in. It depends on your visual judgement, but so do your prints which makes it usable if you don't want to buy a profiling device.
It Is hidden in 'Control Panel' - 'Display'

Roger

[Patrick]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Brian,
I don't know which OS you are using or even it is on PC or Mac. If you are using Windows 7 there is a quite competent screen calibrator built in. It depends on your visual judgement, but so do your prints which makes it usable if you don't want to buy a profiling device.
It Is hidden in 'Control Panel' - 'Display'

Roger

I must admit I had forgotten about "Calibrate Colour" in Windows 7, will worth pursuing.

Patrick

[Ian]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

I'm a bit late to this thread, it got me thinking.

If you are using third party inks (I really don't recommend this for all sorts of reasons - it's 99% of the time a false economy unless you are using a sophisticated setup) then the odds are you won't have a printer profile that matches the ink and the paper.

What paper are you using? This is just as important as the ink choice.

Without a profile calculated from test prints using the combination of paper and ink you are using, getting the prints to look right is all guess work and that's really not a good thing.

I would also advise printing from Photoshop instead of ACDSee as Photoshop's colour management engine is the best in the business, but the priority here is to set up your colour management to know about the characteristics of the paper and ink you are using. The only way to do this with third party ink and or paper is to use a colour profiling service. They will send you an image to print, you send the prints back to them and they will then generate a profile for that combination of ink and paper. You can do this yourself, but you'd need to spend a couple of hundred pounds, minimum, on the gear to do it.

I'll wager that if you changed back to Epson ink and paper the inconsistencies would go away.

Ian

[Patrick]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

I'm a bit late to this thread, it got me thinking.

If you are using third party inks (I really don't recommend this for all sorts of reasons - it's 99% of the time a false economy unless you are using a sophisticated setup) then the odds are you won't have a printer profile that matches the ink and the paper.

What paper are you using? This is just as important as the ink choice.

Without a profile calculated from test prints using the combination of paper and ink you are using, getting the prints to look right is all guess work and that's really not a good thing.

I would also advise printing from Photoshop instead of ACDSee as Photoshop's colour management engine is the best in the business, but the priority here is to set up your colour management to know about the characteristics of the paper and ink you are using. The only way to do this with third party ink and or paper is to use a colour profiling service. They will send you an image to print, you send the prints back to them and they will then generate a profile for that combination of ink and paper. You can do this yourself, but you'd need to spend a couple of hundred pounds, minimum, on the gear to do it.

I'll wager that if you changed back to Epson ink and paper the inconsistencies would go away.

Ian

I agree with you Ian but I was advising things in steps, the first priority I still feel is to ensure an accurate monitor, then move on to print profiles.

As to inks we have over the years you & I been down this path, if the inks being used are simply cheap then I agree whole heartedly with you, however if they are inks by a reputable supplier such as Permajet or Fotospeed then I would say they are of good quality although they will require their own profiles as they are not an exact match to Epson inks.
Both offer a free custom profile service for their own papers regardless of the ink brand being used.

Patrick

[Ian]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

I agree with you Ian but I was advising things in steps, the first priority I still feel is to ensure an accurate monitor, then move on to print profiles.

As to inks we have over the years you & I been down this path, if the inks being used are simply cheap then I agree whole heartedly with you, however if they are inks by a reputable supplier such as Permajet or Fotospeed then I would say they are of good quality although they will require their own profiles as they are not an exact match to Epson inks.
Both offer a free custom profile service for their own papers regardless of the ink brand being used.

Patrick

Hi Patrick - no problem; I included the 'unless using a sophisticated setup' as an exception. Also, I was moving beyond the basics that you had covered comprehensively concerning monitor calibration

But I think this thread does underline my view that for most of the time, saving money on cheap inks and paper is a waste of time - and money. If Brian had stuck with manufacturer inks and paper he would not be having the problems (or not such bad problems) as he is having at the moment.

The R800 also has an integrated print head and pigmented inks, so there is a much higher risk that cheap third party inks will damage or clog the print head.

Ian

[Patrick]

Re: different print shades from 2 programs

Hi Patrick - no problem; I included the 'unless using a sophisticated setup' as an exception. Also, I was moving beyond the basics that you had covered comprehensively concerning monitor calibration

But I think this thread does underline my view that for most of the time, saving money on cheap inks and paper is a waste of time - and money. If Brian had stuck with manufacturer inks and paper he would not be having the problems (or not such bad problems) as he is having at the moment.

The R800 also has an integrated print head and pigmented inks, so there is a much higher risk that cheap third party inks will damage or clog the print head.

Ian

Hi Ian indeed you are quite right cheap third party ink can be a nightmare, I used the cheapest third party inks on an all in one, and in about a year the print heads were ruined, I had to buy a new unit.
However I have been using a Permajet CIS system for some years now on my Epson R2400 and its still going strong (touch wood).
My current favourite papers are Hahnemuehle White Etching art paper, or Permajet Royal both expensive, but when I send to an exhibition quality is essential.

Patrick