I was wondering why...(colour space question)

[StuartR]

..my tiff images look better in Canon's ZoomBrowser EX software than they do in PhotoShop CS2? The difference is not massive but noticeable, they seem much more vibrant in ZoomBrowser EX. I've wondered about this for a while and I ended up looking at my PhotoShop settings tonight to see if I could spot anything obvious.

I'm using a calibrated monitor and CS2 is set to use the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 colour space (the same as my camera). I note there's another colour space in the drop down menu which is Monitor RGB - huey D65 G2.2 A2.10 (huey being the calibration device). Should I be using the huey profile? If I do then I get a profile mis-match error message when I load a photo - does that matter?

Apart from the odd "emergency" print, I don't print at home as I prefer to use PhotoBox (I'm convinced it's cheaper in the long run and, in my case, the quality is better) - I note they advise that "It is important to note that the Fuji Frontier printers currently strip out any embedded profiles in your images, so you should ensure that your images are submitted in sRGB"

I'm ashamed to say that I've never really understood this colour profile malarkey , despite reading several articles on the subject, so has anyone got some advice or a web site they can point me at that explains it in simple terms?

[StuartR]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Should have made it a bit clearer that the drop down box is in CS2 (Edit / Colour Settings).

[Stephen]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Stuart, the Huey colour space you refer to is surely the profile created by the Huey that the monitor uses when you switch on. This is different to the sRGB colour space that PS uses, and is the one you must use. If however you print your own, which you say you rarely do then perhaps the Adobe RGB space is the one to use for this as it has a wider colour gamut that the printer can take advantage of.

[vlarcombe]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Hi Stuart,

I tried to come up with a simple explanation after having problems with colour changes when I posted to the forum. It transpired that this was because my files were using Adobe RGB and web browsers expect sRGB. Here's a link to my explanation on the old forum http://dpnow.com/bb/help.pl?read=347. Hope it helps a little.

Vernon

[StuartR]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Thanks Vernon, nice to see you back by the way.

I'm using:

• sRGB in camera (the only other choice is Adobe)
• Huey profile for the monitor
• Huey colour space in PhotoShop CS2 (I wasn't but I am now!)
• Sending pictures to PhotoBox for printing as saved by PhotoShop CS2 - although PhotoBox are suggesting sRGB as they "strip out" embedded profiles.

Does this make sense? I must admit that I'm still not sure that I understand the subject, so time to start googling I think.

[rogleale]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Hi Stuart,
I must first admit that I am no expert, but for several years I have been reading, and trying to understand, what the experts say about colour spaces, profiles, and printing.
In my opinion you have several choices, and here are some points to consider.

a. The Huey profile is for the monitor only, and should not be used in CS2.
b. If you never print your own photos it is easier to let the camera use sRGB, use sRGB in CS2, and send the finished files off to Photobox with that profile assigned.
c. These photos with the sRGB profile are also good for web viewing and e-mailing, but the sRGB colour space can not produce all the colours that Adobe RGB can, especially in the blue/green range.
d. If you do want to try printing some of your own pictures, the following is a widely accepted, but by no means the only, process to follow:

Camera to record in Adobe RGB if possible.
Monitor using the Huey profile.
Working space in CS2 set to Adobe RGB.
Files sent to the printer using Photoshop Managed colour.
Printer using a profile for the paper/printer combination in use.
Printer colour management off - no ICM.

Other people will have other suggestions I am sure, but I hope that I have helped a little.

Roger

[Stephen]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

I would agree with Roger, especially the bit about the colour space and profiles, its exactly what I advised earlier in the thread.

However I wouldn't say you must be using Adobe 1998 in your camera. If you need this colour space its easy enough to select it in PS. I would suggest that as you appear to rarely print your own images then you will need the srgb profile by default and esp for web use.

[StuartR]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys, there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel

I had been thinking to myself that the "Holy Grail" must be to use the same setting throughout the chain, i.e. Adobe or sRGB in camera, monitor, PS & printing (and I might still be right?).

Is the monitor calibration software actually attempting to get the monitor to display colours correctly for the sRGB colour space? I guess it must be...just realised I'm using hardware / software without actually really understanding why I'm using it . Does the more professional (i.e. more expensive) calibration hardware allow you to calibrate you monitor for the Adobe 1998 colour space as well as sRGB I wonder?

So, my slightly revised se will be

sRGB in camera
Huey profile for monitor
sRGB for PhotoShop
sRGB used by PhotoBox

Which is where I was before I started this thread

However, If I ever win the lottery and decide I can afford the ink to print my own again, I could use Roger's suggested Adobe route as my camera can be set to Adobe 1998 - although Stephen, I think you're saying that I can change between sRGB & Adobe without impacting on the integrity of the image file itself? The colour space just defines how the colours will be displayed?

I'm at work at the moment so I don't have it in front of me to check but I'm also wondering if there are any colour space settings in DxO (my RAW converter of choice). Must remember to check that tonight.

[StuartR]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Mmmm that saw the "t" of set and "up" as a command to display a thumbs-up smiley

se

set up

se

Aaaah, but only if you use a hyphen between the two words it appears.

[rogleale]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Hi Stuart,
Stephen is right of course, changing profile during processing of a file in CS2 'should' not adversely affect the final product, it is just that I prefer to keep profile changes to a minimum wherever possible.
The monitor is not calibrated to a colour space. The monitor profile, Huey in your case, ensures that the monitor accurately displays any colour info sent to it, whether sRGB, Adobe RGB, or any other colour space, it records the necessary changes to be made to, say, a yellow of #FFFFOO to ensure that the monitor displays a yellow of #FFFFOO.
Roger

[Jim]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Surely if you use sRGB in camera you cannot recover the information afterwards?
Stephen said: "I wouldn't say you must be using Adobe 1998 in your camera. If you need this colour space its easy enough to select it in PS."

As I understand it (and am more than open to correction, but am pretty sure of my facts), you should use AdobeRGB (which has most information) in camera, then CS can convert to sRGB as it has less information than Adobe?

Only shoot sRGB if you only ever intend displaying on the monitor and intend doing very little in the way of photo manipulation, as it (the monitor) cannot display the full gamut.
For printing or if you intend making adjustments in post processing, the reduced range of colours in sRGB can be a limiting factor and you should use AdobeRGB.

[Stephen]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Surely if you use sRGB in camera you cannot recover the information afterwards?
Stephen said: "I wouldn't say you must be using Adobe 1998 in your camera. If you need this colour space its easy enough to select it in PS."

As I understand it (and am more than open to correction, but am pretty sure of my facts), you should use AdobeRGB (which has most information) in camera, then CS can convert to sRGB as it has less information than Adobe?

Only shoot sRGB if you only ever intend displaying on the monitor and intend doing very little in the way of photo manipulation, as it (the monitor) cannot display the full gamut.
For printing or if you intend making adjustments in post processing, the reduced range of colours in sRGB can be a limiting factor and you should use AdobeRGB.

I hear what you say Jim, and I don't know the definitive answer to the conundrum. However as you know Photoshop, Lightroom and no doubt other similar programs have the option to assign and Convert to profile. Here you can assign or convert to the colour space you want from whatever it started as. Indeed a raw file appears to be neither when its downloaded to the PC and you have the option to process them in either colour space.

My understanding of it is that at the end of the day the colour space is only an algorithm that can be changed at any stage. I'd be interested to see any article that has some more info on the subject.

[Jim]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Without being funny, (seriously, now), I shall look at a few and pick the one that is the most lucid. As you know, some of the gurus get quite agitated about this sort of thing, especially if they think you don't understand, and manage to froth a little, even over the web!

Grandson just arrived so I may be baby sitting (is that the same as BS?) for a while. I'll post as soon as I can.

Jim

[Jim]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

I think that Mike Chaney has the gift of most eloquently explaining the subject.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/techcorner/October_2006.html

Incidentally, if you don't know his column, it's well worth having a look at once a month.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/techcorner/tc_index.html

Jim

[Stephen]

Re: I was wondering why...(colour space question)

Yes, all that seems reasonable enough, nothing that I didn't know already I suppose. One of the most telling bits was him saying "You can't get back what you didn't record in the first place! " This may be true, but he doesn't explain what's going on when in PS etc. you 'Assign Profile' and there is a visible colour shift with more saturated colours.

It seems to me that setting the colour space in camera could depend on one or more of the following 1. whether you shoot in JPEG or Raw,as the colour space is decided after the event when the file is processed 2. whether you print your own photos or not, as many commercial printers seem to want sRGB 3. What the end user may need as there seems little point in supplying a client with something they can't take advantage of and may even appear worse when printed. 4. How you use your shots yourself, as if its for web use then sRGB is the best.

Its for these sort of reasons that I generally process my raw files in the sRGB colour space, though if I'm producing prints myself for a client then I will use Adobe 1998