Hong Kong at night, but...

[Ian]

Is this too dark?

Ian

[Archangel]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

For me it is too dark Ian, as you cannot distinguish the space separation between the buildings in the foreground along with their edges too.
From the EXIF, I see that you have taken the shot in Aperture priority with f 5.6.
Also I see that the Exposure Bias is set to -1.
With these settings the result is the expected.

Shooting in "Shutter Priority" at night is more appropriate, as the camera will choose an f value between 2.8 - 3.3 or maximum 3.7 and you will have to choose shutter speed of around 2-4 seconds for the specific shot.
Also by shooting at night with shutter priority you have the advantage of under exposing your shot by -1EV in case you get blown highlights from the street lighting or lighted signs.


George

[Stephen]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

I think its too dark too, for much the same reasons. The foreground does not have enough ambient light and therefore there is little separation in the buildings.

It would appear that you have used the cameras meter to decide the exposure, though you have been aware that it may not have been accurate and therefore used exposure compensation of -1EV. I think you should have gone to at least +1EV too

I think George is right to a degree that TV would have been better, though personally I would have used Manual completely. Set the aperture to f5.6-f.8 then taken several exposures starting around 2 secs with 1 second increments. I would think that by the time you get to 8 secs you will have got one thats OK

I tweaked yours in LR, though frankly its a struggle to get a decent result with such a small image, its now beginning to break up in the lighter areas. I also altered the WB which has helped with that orangey caste

[Ian]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Sorry George, you are entitled to your opinion concerning night time shooting preferences, but I chose my settings quite thoughtfully and I am perfectly happy with my choice. I also disagree with your preferences.

I chose aperture priority in order to choose an aperture in the sweet spot for the lens in terms of optical sharpness. The camera was mounted on the railing of the observation deck using a gorillapod, so I wasn't concerned about a long exposure time.

I also chose -1 EV because, usually, cameras over-expose in scenes like this.

The pictures, when viewed on the camera screen at the time, were a good match to the actual view. In fact, my recollection of the view is really quite close to the picture posted here. So the exposure is actually pretty good.

The kind of debate here is more about whether the actual view or an enhanced view is preferable. I always prefer to record the reality and enhance later if required.

Clearly, you feel an enhanced view is preferable and that's OK, but please don't tell me *how* to take photographs, George - just as I would not wish to tell you how to take photographs.

Your suggested exposure is several EVs higher than the setting I used and would have resulted in badly over-exposed highlights. My version can have the dark and mid-tone areas selectively lifted without affecting the highlights.

Using a full aperture in conditions where there is very high contrast detail (like neoon lights) would have risked optical blooming.

In your last sentence, you say that shutter priority mode gives me the 'advantage' of under exposing the shot by -1 EV in case I got blown highlights. Well, I did that anyway using aperture priority mode. So I don't really understand your point?

Ian

[Ian]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Here is a lightened version (all from JPEG as the Olympus E-410 I used is not yet supported in Adobe Camera Raw):

Another reason I preferred the darker view on the day is that it was actually a slightly misty evening and the brighter the view the more of a glow there was in the air that detracts from the detail in the buildings.

I still believe aperture control was more important than the shutter here. Manual is of course the ideal solution - but I was in a hurry with a plane to catch that same evening.

Ian

[Stephen]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Another reason I preferred the darker view on the day is that it was actually a slightly misty evening and the brighter the view the more of a glow there was in the air that detracts from the detail in the buildings.

I still believe aperture control was more important than the shutter here. Manual is of course the ideal solution - but I was in a hurry with a plane to catch that same evening.

Ian

I'm glad you confirmed it was a little misty, as that was my feeling too, its not helping the light levels in the middle distance, maybe the light from those taller buildings overlooking the harbour area is reflecting off the mist a little, it surely is not helping the far distant area.

[Ian]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

I'm glad you confirmed it was a little misty, as that was my feeling too, its not helping the light levels in the middle distance, maybe the light from those taller buildings overlooking the harbour area is reflecting off the mist a little, it surely is not helping the far distant area.

I've just changed the second version I posted.

Alas, it was quite cloudy and misty during our three days in Hong Kong. Here is a completely guessed shot using ISO 1600 and flash to include Julia and Lara in the foreground - (manual exposure ) As you can see the mistiness really shows through.

Ian

[Archangel]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Sorry George, you are entitled to your opinion concerning night time shooting preferences, but I chose my settings quite thoughtfully and I am perfectly happy with my choice. I also disagree with your preferences.

Clearly, you feel an enhanced view is preferable and that's OK, but please don't tell me *how* to take photographs, George - just as I would not wish to tell you how to take photographs.

Ian, you obviously have misunderstood me, while at the same time you didn't misunderstood Stephen that suggested that full manual control is the utlimate way to go, which indeed is and can give full control over aperture and shutter. Besides that, a suggestion of a different approach is something that is being done all the time at the Critique section and which really is not related to the knowledge or ability of the photographer.

In your last sentence, you say that shutter priority mode gives me the 'advantage' of under exposing the shot by -1 EV in case I got blown highlights. Well, I did that anyway using aperture priority mode. So I don't really understand your point?

Obviously, you didn't understand my point Ian.
Using shutter priority, you would have underexposed your shot with the shutter and not with preset in the Exposure Bias of the camera to the already -1.
In other words, you would have kept EV to the value of 0 and use the shutter speed to control over or under expose of your shot.
That is the reason I suggested the "Shutter Priority" option or "TV" as it is called in Canons and some other cameras, and not completely manual exposure.

Strictly speaking of nightshots, then full manual is the way to go as Stephen indicated too.


George

George

[Stephen]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

In other words, you would have kept EV to the value of 0 and use the shutter speed to control over or under expose of your shot.

George

Err this is not strictly true either. In TV mode with the EV to the value of 0, moving the shutter speed as you suggest has a corresponding effect on the Aperture and so the EV remains at 0. this is why Manual or a camera that has a program shift control is best. The Canon wheel does this, and I suspect though am not entirely sure, that the Olympus will too

[Archangel]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Sorry George, you are entitled to your opinion concerning night time shooting preferences, but I chose my settings quite thoughtfully and I am perfectly happy with my choice. I also disagree with your preferences.

Clearly, you feel an enhanced view is preferable and that's OK, but please don't tell me *how* to take photographs, George - just as I would not wish to tell you how to take photographs.

Ian, you obviously have misunderstood me, while at the same time you didn't misunderstood Stephen that suggested that full manual control is the utlimate way to go, which indeed is and can give full control over aperture and shutter. Besides that, a suggestion of a different approach is something that is being done all the time at the Critique section and which really is not related to the knowledge or ability of the photographer.

In your last sentence, you say that shutter priority mode gives me the 'advantage' of under exposing the shot by -1 EV in case I got blown highlights. Well, I did that anyway using aperture priority mode. So I don't really understand your point?

Obviously, you didn't understand my point Ian.
Using shutter priority, you would have underexposed your shot with the shutter and not with preset in the Exposure Bias of the camera to the already -1.
In other words, you would have kept EV to the value of 0 and use the shutter speed to control over or under expose of your shot.
That is the reason I suggested the "Shutter Priority" option or "TV" as it is called in Canons and some other cameras, and not completely manual exposure.

Strictly speaking of nightshots, then full manual is the way to go as Stephen indicated too.

George

[Ian]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Ian, you obviously have misunderstood me, while at the same time you didn't misunderstood Stephen that suggested that full manual control is the utlimate way to go, which indeed is and can give full control over aperture and shutter. Besides that, a suggestion of a different approach is something that is being done all the time at the Critique section and which really is not related to the knowledge or ability of the photographer.

First of all, full manual control and shutter priority are completely different, so that point is irrelevant. I did disagree with Stephen in his view that he would have used shutter priority and I have explained why. I'm still not convinced that shutter priority is advantageous.

Secondly, I quote you: "Shooting in "Shutter Priority" at night is more appropriate" - that comes across as 'your method is wrong, so do it this way" or at the very least, "this way is better" - but clearly it is not. It's an alternative but it is not decisively 'better'.

I'm always interested in what other photographers would do, but your wording is not appropriate, sorry.

Obviously, you didn't understand my point Ian.
Using shutter priority, you would have underexposed your shot with the shutter and not with preset in the Exposure Bias of the camera to the already -1.

I'm not sure we even agree on what 'shutter priority' means (auto exposure with meter-controlled aperture and preset shutter speed) because again you aren't making any sense.

Of course I underexposed the shot deliberately with the shutter because the aperture in aperture priority mode, which I used, was preset. The shutter speed was determined by the meter and the -1 EV bias I applied that made the shutter speed one EV faster than it would have been otherwise. It makes no difference whether I used manual or aperture priority as I wanted to use f/5.6 - for the solid reasons I explained. I still don't understand what advantage shutter priority offers here!

In other words, you would have kept EV to the value of 0 and use the shutter speed to control over or under expose of your shot.
That is the reason I suggested the "Shutter Priority" option or "TV" as it is called in Canons and some other cameras, and not completely manual exposure.

That simply doesn't make any sense, George.

Strictly speaking of nightshots, then full manual is the way to go as Stephen indicated too.

If I had time, yes I would have used manual as it avoids metering instability, but I would still have based my exposures on the camera's meter. So the difference between using manual and auto is really quite marginal and I personally have no regrets at all in using aperture priority auto in the way I did.

So yes, George, I have obviously misunderstood you and, sad to say, I still don't understand you.

Ian

[Archangel]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Err this is not strictly true either. In TV mode with the EV to the value of 0, moving the shutter speed as you suggest has a corresponding effect on the Aperture and so the EV remains at 0. this is why Manual or a camera that has a program shift control is best. The Canon wheel does this, and I suspect though am not entirely sure, that the Olympus will too

Not strictly false either Stephen.
At night the best aperture the camera can choose is always the lowest value of f and the only thing it happens is that the camera shows you that it will underexpose the image. As you move into faster shutter speeds the camera shows constantly that you will have and underexposed image.

Indeed it exists the program shift as you say, but the settings of f are somewhat limited at night, though it is still an option to consider.

P.S I went to correct my name that appeared twice in the previous post and the system posted the same post twice.


George

[Ian]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Not strictly false either Stephen.
At night the best aperture the camera can choose is always the lowest value of f and the only thing it happens is that the camera shows you that it will underexpose the image. As you move into faster shutter speeds the camera shows constantly that you will have and underexposed image.

Indeed it exists the program shift as you say, but the settings of f are somewhat limited at night, though it is still an option to consider.

P.S I went to correct my name that appeared twice in the previous post and the system posted the same post twice.


George

I'm trying very hard to understand, George, so I need to ask you what you mean by a 'low' value of 'f'?

Ian

[Archangel]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

I'm trying very hard to understand, George, so I need to ask you what you mean by a 'low' value of 'f'?

Ian

I mean low f values like 2.8, 3.2, 3.6 and not 6.3, 7.1, 8, e.t.c

George

[Stephen]

Re: Hong Kong at night, but...

Indeed it exists the program shift as you say, but the settings of f are somewhat limited at night, though it is still an option to consider.




George

Not if you use a tripod or something steady to rest the camera on. Pretty much any aperture you want I'd suggest. In the auto modes, what the camera chooses is often far from the best setting.