f1 (japan) - choked.....

[devilgas]

....that's my opinion of what hamilton did yesterday.

heard the soundbite about his version of the penalty he got. his race was ruined at the very first corner - amazed there was no contact with anyone. he'd have had to stop for new rubber regardless. massa spinning him out and putting him at the very back didn't help the cause (imo massa got away very lightly with his punishment of cause & effect for that one).
so glad i hauled my ass out of bed for that race. not.

lewis may be ahead on points, but i think it'll be a similar story to last year with him being edged out by a point or 2 in brazil.

[Ian]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

....that's my opinion of what hamilton did yesterday.

heard the soundbite about his version of the penalty he got. his race was ruined at the very first corner - amazed there was no contact with anyone. he'd have had to stop for new rubber regardless. massa spinning him out and putting him at the very back didn't help the cause (imo massa got away very lightly with his punishment of cause & effect for that one).
so glad i hauled my ass out of bed for that race. not.

lewis may be ahead on points, but i think it'll be a similar story to last year with him being edged out by a point or 2 in brazil.

Since you raised the subject

No doubt that Hamilton made possibly two mistakes (too hot into the first corner and making a pass on Massa when there was no point (as he had to pit immediately with flat-spotted tyres anyway) and although innocent when Massa collided with him, Hamilton put himself into danger in the first place.

But what was so refreshing was that Hamilton admitted, with a smile, that he had made a mistake. I can't remember when Alonso, Raikkonen, Massa, Schumacher or any other leading driver was so honest and frank...

Once again, Raikkonen failed to deliver - he's definitely off the boil at the moment. He should have easily dealt with Kubica on shredded tyres (though full respect for Kubica for stayingin front too!).

Massa was all over the place too - and how on earth did Massa taking out Bourdais as he was coming out of the pits result in Bourdais getting the penalty? The big question mark over the impartiality or even competence of the race stewards has certainly not gone away.

Apart from all that, it was an action packed race -certainly plenty of thrills.

Ian

[devilgas]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

to me, the pass on massa was justified as he'd (massa) overcooked it. pointless wasting an overtaking opportunity. massa's subsequent driving, and ultimate contact with ham, was reckless. i can understand having your entire car off the circuit, but then to drive into the back end of another car in some vain attempt to cut the corner and get back the place lost through the same over commitment as demonstrated by lewis at the first corner and then get away with a punitive drive through eludes me.

the incident with bourdais was bizarre. racing for position, bourdais on the inside due to exitting pits, massa drives into him and bourdais gets the penalty?

everyone says about hamilton being a loose cannon, but massa ain't no angel. the overtake on webber, using the pit exit, should've been investigated as it's setting an otherwise potentially fatal precedent. that thick white line is there to 'protect' those exiting the pits from the cars doing 200mph down the mile long straight.

[Rodbender]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

to me, the pass on massa was justified as he'd (massa) overcooked it. pointless wasting an overtaking opportunity. massa's subsequent driving, and ultimate contact with ham, was reckless. i can understand having your entire car off the circuit, but then to drive into the back end of another car in some vain attempt to cut the corner and get back the place lost through the same over commitment as demonstrated by lewis at the first corner and then get away with a punitive drive through eludes me.

the incident with bourdais was bizarre. racing for position, bourdais on the inside due to exitting pits, massa drives into him and bourdais gets the penalty?

everyone says about hamilton being a loose cannon, but massa ain't no angel. the overtake on webber, using the pit exit, should've been investigated as it's setting an otherwise potentially fatal precedent. that thick white line is there to 'protect' those exiting the pits from the cars doing 200mph down the mile long straight.

I could not agree more with what you have said. That Webber overtaking move was dam right dangerous and in my book should have resulted in a two race suspension. The fact that no accident occurred is immaterial, reckless driving needs to be stopped before someone gets hurt.

[JSR]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

Instead of a white line at the pit exit, why don't they build a wall?

There's a rule saying those who exit the pitlane shouldn't cross the line due to danger of oncoming traffic but, as far as I'm aware, there's no rule saying the racing drivers can't use that part of the track. If there is a rule saying that racing drivers aren't allowed to use that part of the race track when racing, then they should put a wall up to stop them doing so. I think it was Jackie Stewart who said the other week that there'd be a lot less of drivers cutting corners if there were walls instead of rumble strips. The same applies to the Webber incident.

As I understand it, the onus is on those leaving the pits (on colder tyres and slower speed) to feed back into the faster traffic safely - the onus isn't on those who are racing, otherwise there'd be yellow flags waved to slow the racing cars down whenever a car exits the pits. (Indirectly, this would also cover the Bourdais incident in which he should have been wary of the much faster car that was already up at race speed. Feeding a slower car with cold tyres and less grip into the path of a car that's already up to speed could be considered dangerous and maybe that's why he was penalised.)

The way I see the Webber manoeuvre was that there was track there, so Massa used it. Anyone else in that position would have done the same thing.

As for the Massa into Hamilton incident, it's very likely that if Hamilton hadn't made such a dangerous dash to the first corner, locking up all wheels and forcing half the cars off the racetrack, then just maybe Hamilton wouldn't have been in that position for Massa to hit him. Yes, Massa was correctly penalised for the incident but there may have been no incident if Hamilton hadn't already caused an incident a short while earlier.

Still, well done to Alonso for winning two races in a row. A well-deserved win this week and no mistake. If Renault give him a decent car next year, he'll be back at the top and racing for his third WDC. That'll be good to see given the disappointing show from Raikkonen this year.

[Ian]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

First of all - I totally agree on Alonso; his true rank really shone for a second race in a row. I don't particularly like his character, but he has certainly shown that he has huge potential and sheer speed.

I still don't get the Bourdais penalty. Massa was behind him, Bourdais stayed on his line and within the pit exit white lines, it was completely Massa's responsibility to ensure that he avoided contact. And this was, as has been previously pointed out, a race for position. I don't see that Bourdais did anything wrong. I was expecting Massa to get penalised, so Bourdais getting the penalty was just laughable.

Ian

Instead of a white line at the pit exit, why don't they build a wall?

There's a rule saying those who exit the pitlane shouldn't cross the line due to danger of oncoming traffic but, as far as I'm aware, there's no rule saying the racing drivers can't use that part of the track. If there is a rule saying that racing drivers aren't allowed to use that part of the race track when racing, then they should put a wall up to stop them doing so. I think it was Jackie Stewart who said the other week that there'd be a lot less of drivers cutting corners if there were walls instead of rumble strips. The same applies to the Webber incident.

As I understand it, the onus is on those leaving the pits (on colder tyres and slower speed) to feed back into the faster traffic safely - the onus isn't on those who are racing, otherwise there'd be yellow flags waved to slow the racing cars down whenever a car exits the pits. (Indirectly, this would also cover the Bourdais incident in which he should have been wary of the much faster car that was already up at race speed. Feeding a slower car with cold tyres and less grip into the path of a car that's already up to speed could be considered dangerous and maybe that's why he was penalised.)

The way I see the Webber manoeuvre was that there was track there, so Massa used it. Anyone else in that position would have done the same thing.

As for the Massa into Hamilton incident, it's very likely that if Hamilton hadn't made such a dangerous dash to the first corner, locking up all wheels and forcing half the cars off the racetrack, then just maybe Hamilton wouldn't have been in that position for Massa to hit him. Yes, Massa was correctly penalised for the incident but there may have been no incident if Hamilton hadn't already caused an incident a short while earlier.

Still, well done to Alonso for winning two races in a row. A well-deserved win this week and no mistake. If Renault give him a decent car next year, he'll be back at the top and racing for his third WDC. That'll be good to see given the disappointing show from Raikkonen this year.

[JSR]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

First of all - I totally agree on Alonso; his true rank really shone for a second race in a row. I don't particularly like his character, but he has certainly shown that he has huge potential and sheer speed.

I still don't get the Bourdais penalty. Massa was behind him, Bourdais stayed on his line and within the pit exit white lines, it was completely Massa's responsibility to ensure that he avoided contact. And this was, as has been previously pointed out, a race for position. I don't see that Bourdais did anything wrong. I was expecting Massa to get penalised, so Bourdais getting the penalty was just laughable.

Ian

That's probably why we're not stewards!

I think I read a discussion on the ITV website in which someone mentioned seeing shots from the internal cameras that showed more than what we saw - but that could all be will o' the wisp and wishful thinking.

Whatever the reasoning, I'm sure the stewards can't just make up penalties just to foster the conspiracy theories. Or, maybe they can?

From what we saw, I don't necessarily think Bourdais should have been penalised but that doesn't mean I think Massa should either.

[peter]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

Come on guys lewis was only saying before the race how cool he was then when the lights turn green all he can see is red mist. He almost took out his team mate as well as both of the Ferrari's. Like as already been said in this post the massa/lewis thing would never had happened if lewis had not gone off track at the start. Oh and Ian what else could he have said it was his fault no one put him there. The massa/Bourdais penalty was odd not sure how that came about just looked like racing to me. Next year should be fun with the new rules. What will the stewards do when all the over taking happens. Off topic have any of you guys seen this video. talk about the itv fan boys being over the top about Lewis. I was waiting for Schumacher to walk off just look at his body language.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7661652.stm

[JSR]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

Off topic have any of you guys seen this video. talk about the itv fan boys being over the top about Lewis. I was waiting for Schumacher to walk off just look at his body language.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7661652.stm

Gawd, the first part of that interview was awful. Hamilton, Hamilton, Hamilton. Jeez, the whole world doesn't spin around Hamilton!

Fortunately, the second half of the interview was more interesting. I almost didn't get that far, but I'm glad I stuck it out. Schumacher comes across as very considered and very reasonable. Full marks to him for keeping calm with all the Hamilton questions.

We seem to have forgotten that there are 19 other drivers out there who aren't called "Hamilton". Every one of them are skilled and talented - they wouldn't be driving formula 1 cars if they weren't. Not all of them have the best car in the field, though. Hamilton does.

An interview with a 7-times world champion and all we can talk about is a newbie who hasn't won one world championship yet. It's highly presumptuous to suggest that Hamilton would be of any more significance to Schumacher than any of the other 17 drivers from competitive teams. As Schumacher says, his passion lies with Ferrari and that should be enough. I'm sure any driver in any other team would say exactly the same thing about their team.

Why does *every* F1 question and interview have to contain the word "Hamilton"?

[Ian]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

Having now reviewed the Bourdais/Massa incident on TV, I'm even more convinced that Bourdais was stitched-up. It's completely outrageous. Bourdais was actually well past the end of the pit lane exit white line before Massa drew level. It was completely Massa's responsibility to avoid hitting Bourdais when approaching from behind.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

Having now reviewed the Bourdais/Massa incident on TV, I'm even more convinced that Bourdais was stitched-up. It's completely outrageous. Bourdais was actually well past the end of the pit lane exit white line before Massa drew level. It was completely Massa's responsibility to avoid hitting Bourdais when approaching from behind.

Ian

If Bourdais and STR agreed with you, why aren't they appealing the penalty?

At the end of the day, one point extra to Massa hardly hands him the championship so it's not like someone needed to concoct a fake penalty.

And let's not forget, the penalty didn't just give Massa an extra point. STR's Sebastian Vettel and Red Bull's Mark Webber also benefited from the penalty and both ended up higher in the championship table as a result. Is there a conspiracy inside Red Bull/STR as well as for Ferrari? Is that why STR aren't complaining about the penalty? Perhaps Red Bull/STR pushed for the penalty to ensure this would happen?

On a related note, who's thrown their rattles out of their prams now? Re -

Hamilton: Massa deliberately hit me

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=44255

Lewis suggested that his championship rival had made a calculated decision to run into him.

"Felipe hit me off," Hamilton was quoted as saying by The Independent. "It was as deliberate as it could be."

Yes, Lewis, because Massa risking crashing out of the race is precisely what he'd do when he's 7 points behind. A crash that could have taken them both out would have played into Hamilton's own hands, and would have killed Massa's WDC hopes.

Why the heck would he deliberately try and cause a crash? Although it was Massa's fault and he deserved the penalty, he was over the corner with no grip and struggling to get back onto the track. He hardly launched himself at Hamilton like a missile to knock him out of the race.

Put the toys back in the pram and get ready for the next race.

[Ian]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

If Bourdais and STR agreed with you, why aren't they appealing the penalty?

At the end of the day, one point extra to Massa hardly hands him the championship so it's not like someone needed to concoct a fake penalty.

And let's not forget, the penalty didn't just give Massa an extra point. STR's Sebastian Vettel and Red Bull's Mark Webber also benefited from the penalty and both ended up higher in the championship table as a result. Is there a conspiracy inside Red Bull/STR as well as for Ferrari? Is that why STR aren't complaining about the penalty? Perhaps Red Bull/STR pushed for the penalty to ensure this would happen?

I think you half answered your question, as Red Bull, overall, profited from Bourdais' demise, but also don't forget that Ferrari supplies STR's engines...

At this stage in the season, every point is super-valuable for the championship contenders.

Ian

[JSR]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

I think you half answered your question, as Red Bull, overall, profited from Bourdais' demise, but also don't forget that Ferrari supplies STR's engines...

At this stage in the season, every point is super-valuable for the championship contenders.

Ian

I'm glad I don't have a devious mind. I'm not sure I could carry on watching if I thought there were so many conspiracies and that everyone who wore any shade of red whatsoever is cheating.

I'm no great fan of Ferrari's, or either driver in Ferrari, but I don't look at every racing incident and think "what's Ferrari getting out of that one?"

Did Hamilton get no points and Kovalinen blow up in order to help Massa, given that McLaren's cars benefited from the stolen Ferrari documents last year? Yes, that's a ludicrous assertation but no more ludicrous than STR not complaining just because they happen to use Ferrari's cast-off engines.

[devilgas]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

i'm with ian on this one. RB / STR had more to gain in NOT contesting the penalty.

[Ian]

Re: f1 (japan) - choked.....

I'm glad I don't have a devious mind. I'm not sure I could carry on watching if I thought there were so many conspiracies and that everyone who wore any shade of red whatsoever is cheating.

I'm no great fan of Ferrari's, or either driver in Ferrari, but I don't look at every racing incident and think "what's Ferrari getting out of that one?"

Did Hamilton get no points and Kovalinen blow up in order to help Massa, given that McLaren's cars benefited from the stolen Ferrari documents last year? Yes, that's a ludicrous assertation but no more ludicrous than STR not complaining just because they happen to use Ferrari's cast-off engines.

In this race I'm only really interested in the Mass/Bourdais incident. Nobody has yet explained why or how Bourdais landed the penalty when most of us think it was completely the other way around. The Stewards and the FIA need to be much more pro-active in explaining their decisions.

I'm already on record in this thread agreeing that Hamilton made two costly mistakes on the first lap.

I wouldn't call the STR Ferrari engines 'cast-offs' - according to the current rules, these engines should be exactly the same as the works team and they are certainly better than the Renault units used by Renault and Red Bull at the moment.

Ian