And so it ends...?

[JSR]

Alonso/McLaren split confirmed

Although it was perfectly obvious to everyone that McLaren couldn't suffer another 2007 next season, and I'm glad Alonso has "got out", I can't help but feel that McLaren have let a great F1 driving talent slip through their fingers.

It was obvious that if the axe fell and the ultimatum came, McLaren would boot out Alonso and hold onto Hamilton but I wonder if this'll be seen as the "right thing to do" at the end of the 2008 season if Hamilton doesn't win the WDC? Or will people start saying that they let the wrong one go?

I just hope Alonso gets a good car next season - wherever he ends up. Then we'll get a really good fight to the WDC.

[peter]

Re: And so it ends...?

The two top teams are now gone. He may go back to his old team but I have read that Red Bull and Toyota maybe after him. He may even end up in a Honda as it seems that Honda have fallen out of love with Rubens. Will Lewis miss him i e in setting up the car. Now who will be in the other seat next to Lewis?.

[Ian]

Re: And so it ends...?

Alonso/McLaren split confirmed

Although it was perfectly obvious to everyone that McLaren couldn't suffer another 2007 next season, and I'm glad Alonso has "got out", I can't help but feel that McLaren have let a great F1 driving talent slip through their fingers.

It was obvious that if the axe fell and the ultimatum came, McLaren would boot out Alonso and hold onto Hamilton but I wonder if this'll be seen as the "right thing to do" at the end of the 2008 season if Hamilton doesn't win the WDC? Or will people start saying that they let the wrong one go?

I just hope Alonso gets a good car next season - wherever he ends up. Then we'll get a really good fight to the WDC.

I was talking to my brother in law this evening about the Alonso news and it struck me that while Hamilton's performances have been outstanidng for a rookie, the fact is that he was very fortunate to debut in a car that was a race winner through and through. Most rookies never get that opportunity. If McLaren's 2008 car is no good - it's happened before - and the turmoil within the team could be factor, Hamilton could be in for a bleak season in 2008 - and Alonso could mark himself lucky for leaving. Could be ironic.

Ian

[Bearface]

Re: And so it ends...?

Alonso/McLaren split confirmed

Although it was perfectly obvious to everyone that McLaren couldn't suffer another 2007 next season, and I'm glad Alonso has "got out", I can't help but feel that McLaren have let a great F1 driving talent slip through their fingers.

It was obvious that if the axe fell and the ultimatum came, McLaren would boot out Alonso and hold onto Hamilton but I wonder if this'll be seen as the "right thing to do" at the end of the 2008 season if Hamilton doesn't win the WDC? Or will people start saying that they let the wrong one go?

I just hope Alonso gets a good car next season - wherever he ends up. Then we'll get a really good fight to the WDC.

Well, at the risk of going over old ground, I just don't think Alonso is a great talent. His consistency and intelligence combined with a superior package won him two championships at Renault, but for me he's not one of the top-tier drivers in the same league as Senna, Mansell, Schuey, Hakkinen, Raikonnen and even Hamilton (who was generally faster - and infinitely more interesting to watch - than Alonso throughout 2007 in an identical car). He's certainly better than average, but I think to describe him as a "great talent" is pushing things a tad.

If Hamilton hadn't made those silly, rookie mistakes he'd have easily shown Alonso the way home........it's hardly relevant that his first season was with a top team, because Lewis regularly out-performed his double world-champion team-mate practically from day one.

If the rumours are true (and I sincerely hope they aren't...), then I believe Alonso's next WDC opportunity will come if or when he joins Ferrari - either in 2008 if Massa is bought out of his contract, or 2009 if Kimi moves on or retires. At Red Bull, Renault or Toyota, I really don't think he'll be challenging drivers from McLaren, Ferrari or BMW next season.........but stranger things have happened

What I'm looking forward to is a season in which the best drivers fight for the crown in similarly competitive machinery.........but without all the childish, petulant toy-throwing that tarnished the 2007 season. I think there's a strong possibility that Raikonnen will defend his crown successfully, but without traction control it's nevertheless going to be very interesting indeed. Certainly the drivers whose styles favour steering on the throttle (Raikonnen, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg etc) will benefit hugely, but will the tyres cope..?

I'd love to see Rosberg over at McLaren because I think his talents have been hidden by what has at best been a mediocre car. Anyway, we'll just have to see.

[JSR]

Re: And so it ends...?

He's certainly better than average, but I think to describe him as a "great talent" is pushing things a tad.

Well, if winning the WDC two years in succession and only being a point off doing it a third time in a completely different team doesn't define a driver as a "great talent", then I don't know what else Alonso's supposed to do to prove that he has what it takes.

[JSR]

Re: And so it ends...?

it seems that Honda have fallen out of love with Rubens.

I read a bit about that. Do you know anymore than just reading between the lines? What's the problem with Honda and Rubens?

If, as Button insists, the 2007 car was a flop and the 2008 one should correct most of the shortcomings, then it stands to reason that both Button and Rubens could be doing good things next year. I don't see why, in that circumstance, there'd be friction at Honda regarding Barichello's lack of performance in 2007. What's going on here?

[Bearface]

Re: And so it ends...?

Well, if winning the WDC two years in succession and only being a point off doing it a third time in a completely different team doesn't define a driver as a "great talent", then I don't know what else Alonso's supposed to do to prove that he has what it takes.

He won with Renault because in 2005 the tyre situation and the new qualifying rules suited Michelin runners and Renault's car in particular. Getting on pole and winning races was down to his consistency and the superior package, but not much more. Winning by virtue of your rivals' equipment shortcomings and circumstantial handicaps is not a demonstration of "great talent"...

In 2006 Renault (and therefore Alonso) fielded the best car. It was the most reliable, consistently the fastest and although Schuey came close, he didn't have the car under him (at least for the first half of the season) to complete. Again, this came down to superior equipment and not "great talent" on the part of Alonso.

Damon Hill had what was the best car (by miles...) in the Williams in 1995 and 1996 and yet he only just took the 1996 championship against a Ferrari that was significantly less competitive (it was pretty much a lemon!) and certainly less reliable, so it's pretty clear who had the talent. Like Alonso, Hill won by virtue of his kit and not because he was blessed with any great talent. Then Villeneuve did it the following year.......and he was a distinctly mediocre F1 driver, despite what he might think........but Schuey still ran him to the wire in a dog of a Ferrari. That isn't to say that he, Hill and Alonso didn't deserve to win their titles (winning WDCs is a team effort after all) but by no means can any of those three drivers be objectively rated as "great talents" because it simply isn't true.

This year Alonso was placed in a team which arguably fielded the best car. Up against a rookie team-mate in equal machinery, he failed to demonstrate superior speed and in nearly every benchmark, Lewis was quicker pretty much from the start. Only Hamilton's inexperience gave Alonso the edge on a few occasions, but experience is something every drivers gains and it certainly isn't a measure of "great talent".

Next season we'll see how Alonso performs in a mid-field car. If - like Schuey in his pre-2000 cars - he can compete with the top runners in a slower car, then I'll eat my words and bow to everyone who claims that Alonso is a driving god. However I think we both know that it won't happen, because Alonso is merely a good driver, not a great one.

[Bearface]

Re: And so it ends...?

I read a bit about that. Do you know anymore than just reading between the lines? What's the problem with Honda and Rubens?

If, as Button insists, the 2007 car was a flop and the 2008 one should correct most of the shortcomings, then it stands to reason that both Button and Rubens could be doing good things next year. I don't see why, in that circumstance, there'd be friction at Honda regarding Barichello's lack of performance in 2007. What's going on here?

Button has consistently out-performed Barrichello during 2007, and while the car has been pretty diabolical, it's been the same for both drivers. Naturally this discrepancy has forced the team to ask questions and it's clear that regardless of their own shortcomings, Rubens is simply not as fast as Jenson.

Pretty simple really

[JSR]

Re: And so it ends...?

Oh, I think I understand now. Alonso wins two WDC because of everyone else and not his own driving talent; Hamilton almost wins the WDC because of talent.

Next season we'll see how Alonso performs in a mid-field car. If - like Schuey in his pre-2000 cars - he can compete with the top runners in a slower car, then I'll eat my words and bow to everyone who claims that Alonso is a driving god. However I think we both know that it won't happen, because Alonso is merely a good driver, not a great one.

I have never claimed that Alonso is a "driving god" just that he has great F1 driving talent - as have a number of other drivers in the competition. With the possible exception of Schumacher, I don't think any driver of modern times could be considered a "driving god".

[Bearface]

Re: And so it ends...?

Oh, I think I understand now.

Possibly not

Alonso wins two WDC because of everyone else and not his own driving talent; Hamilton almost wins the WDC because of talent.

Pretty much, yes. With Renault in '05 and '06, he had the quickest, most reliable car........most of us know that such things give you a distinct edge in F1. And in the same car as Hamilton, he was measurably slower and only drew level when Hamilton's inexperience caught him out.

Believe it or not (as is the case with many disciplines and sports), there are those who succeed thanks to their teams and superb equipment and there are those with natural talent. It may surprise you to hear this, but the same goes for F1 and there's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Hamilton is a quicker driver than Alonso. Did you follow F1 in 2007..?

I have never claimed that Alonso is a "driving god" just that he has great F1 driving talent - as have a number of other drivers in the competition. With the possible exception of Schumacher, I don't think any driver of modern times could be considered a "driving god".

I used the term, but I didn't suggest you'd used it. I think you'll find Raikonnen and Hamilton certainly meet the criteria for "driving god" status, but for some of us it's been obvious for quite a while; certainly in the case of Raikonnen, who has often been highlighted by many experts and pundits as the fastest man in F1, even when Schuey was around (he almost beat Schuey in a quick but unreliable Mclaren, which was some going). Only this season did he have the necessary equipment to win, and I'm pretty sure he'll demonstrate his superiority next year.

Hamilton is extremely quick and I think we'll see him battling with Kimi for the championship in 2008, particularly if he's learned from his rookie mistakes and matured a little. Alonso..? I doubt we'll see too much more of him on the podium, at least for the time being.

[JSR]

Re: And so it ends...?

Did you follow F1 in 2007..?

Yes, I did, thank-you very much Mr Sarcasm. It seems that I saw it in a different way to how you saw it.

This is the same 2007 season in which it was constantly stated that Hamilton was favoured over Alonso. Despite claims of equality, it's the same season in which Ron Dennis himself said that they were fighting Alonso and not the Ferraris. This would be the same year in which, at the start, Hamilton was heralded as the second coming but as soon it all blew up between the drivers and Alonso closed his doors on Hamilton, it all came apart for the golden boy.

This would be the same 2007 season in which Hamilton proved one thing quite clearly - that he's the ultimate teflon driver, the driver to whom no penalties can stick when he does things wrong. And that probably has far more to do with the army of lawyers he surrounds himself with than any particular driving talent.

This would be the same 2007 season in which Alonso could quite clearly have won, but had his hands tied so that he couldn't use what he was paid to use - his driving talent. This was clear both on track and by what Alonso himself said.

Whatever. The season's over now and no one cares what our perspective on the year is. Next year I'm rooting for Button (not that rooting for him this year did much good... ).

I used the term, but I didn't suggest you'd used it. I think you'll find Raikonnen and Hamilton certainly meet the criteria for "driving god" status, but for some of us it's been obvious for quite a while;

I think I'll find no such thing. Raikonnen certainly may be considered for such a status, but Hamilton certainly is not ... yet. Every sport has had one hit wonders that sparkle in their debut year and then fizzle out quickly, and it remains to be seen if Hamilton has what he needs to stay the course.

[Bearface]

Re: And so it ends...?

Yes, I did, thank-you very much Mr Sarcasm. It seems that I saw it in a different way to how you saw it.

Indeed it does.

This is the same 2007 season in which it was constantly stated that Hamilton was favoured over Alonso. Despite claims of equality, it's the same season in which Ron Dennis himself said that they were fighting Alonso and not the Ferraris. This would be the same year in which, at the start, Hamilton was heralded as the second coming but as soon it all blew up between the drivers and Alonso closed his doors on Hamilton, it all came apart for the golden boy.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Alonso had inferior equipment or team support compared to Hamilton; none whatsoever. Ron may well have had a better relationship with his rookie driver, but given Alonso's behaviour and attitude, this isn't remotely surprising.

Alonso had it all at the beginning of the season and HE blew it. Remember when things suddenly became a little strained between him and the team..? When Lewis started beating him!

This would be the same 2007 season in which Hamilton proved one thing quite clearly - that he's the ultimate teflon driver, the driver to whom no penalties can stick when he does things wrong. And that probably has far more to do with the army of lawyers he surrounds himself with than any particular driving talent.

I'm sorry, but this is just speculative and nothing more. Again, there is absolutely no evidence available to support this claim.

This would be the same 2007 season in which Alonso could quite clearly have won, but had his hands tied so that he couldn't use what he was paid to use - his driving talent. This was clear both on track and by what Alonso himself said.

He quite clearly was slower than Lewis throughout the season. He CLAIMED his hands were tied later in the season, but for a man who behaved so consistently appallingly throughout the season (and who made numerous unsubstantiated claims, only to change his story at subsequent press conferences...), it's probably fair to say that much of the time he was talking out of his backside.

Whatever. The season's over now and no one cares what our perspective on the year is. Next year I'm rooting for Button (not that rooting for him this year did much good... ).

Button could do well actually.

I think I'll find no such thing. Raikonnen certainly may be considered for such a status, but Hamilton certainly is not ... yet. Every sport has had one hit wonders that sparkle in their debut year and then fizzle out quickly, and it remains to be seen if Hamilton has what he needs to stay the course.

Nobody in F1 has ever displayed so much talent (and backed it up with so many wins, consistent pace and brilliant racecraft) in their maiden year, not even Senna or Schuey. He's a great talent

[JSR]

Re: And so it ends...?

Button could do well actually.

So might Rubens, if he's able to stick around...

I'd love to see one year, just one year would do, in which everything goes well for Button. Even if he still does no better than "best of the rest"!

The only F1 race I've kept on home-DVD is Button's win. How sad is that?

[peter]

Re: And so it ends...?

The only F1 race I've kept on home-DVD is Button's win. How sad is that?

Very . Then again I do have the last race of 94 on video you know the one . The sad thing about that is I no longer have a video player in the house

[Bearface]

Re: And so it ends...?

So might Rubens, if he's able to stick around...

I'd love to see one year, just one year would do, in which everything goes well for Button. Even if he still does no better than "best of the rest"!

The only F1 race I've kept on home-DVD is Button's win. How sad is that?

Rubens is a nice guy, one of the genuine characters in F1. Thing is, I get the feeling he's lost his passion and this has been proven to some extent by his performance during the last season, especially relative to Jenson. It's as though he's realised that he'll never again have the car or the support that Ferrari gave him and therefore his career can only go in one direction. If he does get another chance, he'll need to give it both barrels in 2008.

Put Button in a Ferrari, a McLaren or a BMW and I reckon he'd surprise a few people. His car control is similar to Schuey's and that kind of fluidity in a good car would make him a contender. I'm not sure he's a top-drawer talent, but I'd agree that he's among the best of the rest. Anyway, I'd be genuinely chuffed if he enjoyed some success next year.