Formula 1 Spygate.....

[Bearface]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

At the Hungarian GP, during a row with Ron Dennis, Alonso threatened to tell the FIA about his email correspondance with Pedro De La Rosa, who in turn had discussed several aspects of Ferrari's car with Coughlan, the then chief designer. The reason for this childish display was because Alonso still felt he wasn't getting the backing he wanted from the team (he is known to have repeatedly demanded No.1 status...). Rather than indulge Alonso, Dennis elected to contact the FIA himself and inform them about the emails and try to assure them that what they contained didn't warrant any concern.

During the aforementioned email discussions, De La Rosa and Alonso both declared an open interest in the information and both stated that it would (or could) be acted upon and implemented. Even if it wasn't acted upon or implemented, it's pretty clear that McLaren's main test-driver and more worringly, it's world championship driver, seemed intent on gaining something from the dossier which was in Coughlan's possession. No matter how biased you are in favour of Alonso (and against Ferrari...), it's impossible to reach any conclusion other than that these two drivers made it very clear that they were happy to cheat.

Combine this with Alonso's subsequent threats made during his row with Dennis, and it's easy to see what kind of "sportsman" he is. Dennis was very brave (and demonstrated his integrity) in revealing the emails to the FIA, but unfortunately they took the view that, far from the information being limited to Coughlan (who was fired the moment the dossier came to light), it had reached key personnel (the test driver and Alonso at the very least...) and therefore they (the FIA and the WMSC) had to wonder who else within the team had been privy to the information (or some of it) contained in the dossier. Just how many team members and engineers could De La Rosa and Alonso (and Coughlan, for that matter...) have spoken to in person, or on the phone..?

The fact is, even though Ron has been upfront and tramsparent in his dealings with the FIA, it's clear that far more has been going on behind the scenes than originally claimed, and if the rules of the sport are to be upheld, someone has to be seen to be paying the price for cheating. There are plenty of people who are saying that the sport is suffering and that McLaren's punishment is unjust, but many of these people are the same individuals who take great delight in seeing Ferrari (and Schumacher in the past...) punished for even the slightest transgressions. Interesting that...

The biggest culprit (in my opinion) in all this is Alonso. He has displayed his true colours on numerous occasions this season (both on and off track) and this weekend he was no different - he may have escaped penalty following his moves on Hamilton, but that was aggressive and unnecessary and even Hamilton thought so. Alonso was the reason Ron contacted the FIA in the first place (clearly once he'd made his threat, Ron felt that he had no choice.....probably because he's now learned that Alonso isn't somebody to be trusted...) and therefore as well as being the catalyst for the whole fiasco last week, he was also entangled in the whole affair......and yet he still holds his head up as though he has nothing to be ashamed of. I sincerly hope Ron releases him at the end of the season.......let's see how well he performs back at Renault, shall we?

Evidence? The evidence is the emails, the testimony of key witnesses and all the other contributing material that the Council and the FIA were obliged to consider. I don't have time for Max Moseley, but I'm not sure that the fact he's a lawyer has any bearing on the outcome, especially as he was out-voted on the matter of the McLaren drivers' points......he wanted them out of the championship. On reflection, I think the fairest decision would've been to remove Alonso from the championship, as there was clear evidence in the submitted emails that he intended to gain something from the information. I don't think there was anything "circumstantial" about that...

One thing's for sure.......all this has made me look at Ron Dennis in a different light. He's clearly a fair guy and even though he comes across as arrogant (and often miserable...), he's paid a high price for the idiotic behaviour of a few of his trusted employees. Hopefully they'll all get what they deserve...

[Ian]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

No evidence has been presented that would justify, in a court of law, the kind of punishment that was meted out by the FIA. It's all based on supposition and hearsay - all circumstansial. There is no hard proof whatsoever that any of the information allegedly leaked by a Ferrari employee was actually used.

McLaren invited the FIA to inspect their premises, which they declined to do. No subsequent raids to find evidence have happened; something which certainly would have been done if the matter had gone to court. And Dennis immediately contacted the FIA once he got wind of the extra information concerning Alonso and compatriot De La Rosa's routine conversations about testing.

So what if the drivers and engineers gossiped about information gleaned from various sources? Ferrari keep an eye on their rivals just as much as anyone else and discussions about what the other teams are doing are routine. Everyone copies everyone else - but in this case there isn't even an allegation from Ferrari that anything was copied!

OK, it appears that Alonso rather rashly used his email archive as a bargaining chip with Ron Dennis - apparently in the heat of the moment - (and apologised later) - that was a stupid thing to do and he knows it in hindsight. In the mean time, Ron Dennis and the rest of the team (bar Coughlan, who was immediately suspended) are basically completely innocent (by default as nothing has been proven against them) and yet found guilty by a kangaroo court.

Hardly anyone in the sport outside Ferrari really believes McLaren actually benefitted from the essentially private misdemenours of one Ferrari employee and one McLaren employee.

Only a tiny number of people really know what happened and some of them (allegedly Ferrari's Stepney and McLaren's Coughlan) appear to be the parties that really have something to answer for and yet Stepney is very strongly claiming that he has been framed.

I think a lot of the real evidence will eventually come out in the wash if Ferrari prosecute Stepney. If he isn't prosecuted or if he is and then cleared, then this whole FIA scandal will be seen in a clearer light.

And yes, Ron Dennis certainly does look to have been honourable in all of this, as indeed the people that know him best have said all along. I've never thought he was arrogant - he's always been underlining the McLaren philosophy of equality and fairness and maybe that can come across as being 'superior' - I think he's simply telling the truth about his team, one that he's immensely proud of. He hardly ever badmouths the opposition either, even when he may have been justified in doing so; he visibly stops himself in such situations. I'm not sure he'd be a drinking buddy of mine, but I have total respect for him.

Ron and the team have been dealt a huge injustice and it's felt by a very large proportion of the F1 fans worldwide. Even some life long Ferrari fans I know aren't happy with what the FIA did.

And what about Ferrari?, in terms of honour, the 2007 constructor's championship is a joke that they surely can't take much pleasure from that.

Ian

[Bearface]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

No evidence has been presented that would justify, in a court of law, the kind of punishment that was meted out by the FIA. It's all based on supposition and hearsay - all circumstansial. There is no hard proof whatsoever that any of the information allegedly leaked by a Ferrari employee was actually used.

The F1 teams are not under the jurisdiction of the law courts in these circumstances, which relate to the sporting code and not common law! As for the proof (or not) that McLaren actually gained

McLaren invited the FIA to inspect their premises, which they declined to do. No subsequent raids to find evidence have happened; something which certainly would have been done if the matter had gone to court. And Dennis immediately contacted the FIA once he got wind of the extra information concerning Alonso and compatriot De La Rosa's routine conversations about testing.

But this wasn't a court matter. The FIA and the WMSC had more than enough information and testimony to find McLaren guilty of the charges brought against them, so raids and inspections were unnecessary - as I've already asked you, how do you prove if something has been implemented, and even if it has, how do you prove it was stolen information..........? In fact the only real way to prove anything is via written correspondance and testimony.

So what if the drivers and engineers gossiped about information gleaned from various sources? Ferrari keep an eye on their rivals just as much as anyone else and discussions about what the other teams are doing are routine. Everyone copies everyone else - but in this case there isn't even an allegation from Ferrari that anything was copied!

Everyone keeps an eye on everyone else.........engineers openly inspect rival cars during race weekends. However how many use stolen, 780-page, confidential dossiers full of top-secret information to gain an advantage over their key rivals? McLaren have been seen to be doing precisely this, which is why they were punished. (And before you say "but there's no proof!", ask yourself what that great pile of detailed emails was about, if it wasn't a bid to gain an advantage...).

OK, it appears that Alonso rather rashly used his email archive as a bargaining chip with Ron Dennis - apparently in the heat of the moment - (and apologised later) - that was a stupid thing to do and he knows it in hindsight. In the mean time, Ron Dennis and the rest of the team (bar Coughlan, who was immediately suspended) are basically completely innocent (by default as nothing has been proven against them) and yet found guilty by a kangaroo court.

If this had involved Schumacher or Ferrari, you'd have been baying for blood! Instead, Alonso, who has behaved like a child each time things haven't gone his way at McLaren, is "vindicated" because he said sorry. The fact that he still isn't really speaking to Ron or Lewis just shows him up for the guy he is.........or isn't.

As far as McLaren is concerned, I agree that much of the team is innocent, however neither you or I can determine how far the stolen information when into the team, nor how much of it was used to McLaren's advantage.......it could take months or years to find out for sure.

Hardly anyone in the sport outside Ferrari really believes McLaren actually benefitted from the essentially private misdemenours of one Ferrari employee and one McLaren employee.

At least THREE McLaren employees that we KNOW of, plus whoever they told within the team! And anyone who believes that McLaren didn't benefit in some way should read those emails carefully and reconsider their beliefs...

(BTW, how do you know that hardly anyone in F1 (outside Ferrari) believes that McLaren benefitted from the stolen information..?)

I think a lot of the real evidence will eventually come out in the wash if Ferrari prosecute Stepney. If he isn't prosecuted or if he is and then cleared, then this whole FIA scandal will be seen in a clearer light.

We'll see. I hope you're right.

Ron and the team have been dealt a huge injustice and it's felt by a very large proportion of the F1 fans worldwide. Even some life long Ferrari fans I know aren't happy with what the FIA did.

I wouldn't know whether or not a huge injustice has been done to McLaren or not.......nor would the large proportion of F1 fans worldwide. What I do know is that those emails make it pretty clear that the flow of stolen information didn't stop at Coughlan's door, which was claimed (and accepted) at the first hearing. And it wasn't just the FIA, it was also the WMSC.

And what about Ferrari?, in terms of honour, the 2007 constructor's championship is a joke that they surely can't take much pleasure from that.

If elements of the McLaren team (including the test and world champion driver) used any of the stolen information and gained the slightest advantage as a result, then Ferrari win by default. If anyone thinks that the team didn't win any kind of advantage as a result of the information willingly and enthusiastically channelled by Alonso and De La Rosa, then perhaps they should be asking themselves honestly..........why wouldn't they have used the info..?

[Ian]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

Tim, with the utmost respect, the fact is that there are flows of intelligence between all the teams in various forms, all the time. Every time an employee moves from one team to another, confidential information contained in that person's head will inevitably be gained by the new employer.

I'm not saying that the allegations against Stepney and Coughlan are false or lacking in seriousness (I don't know what the real facts and proof are - none of us do) but unless some more substantial facts emerge, my personal opinion, shared by a lot of others, is that the whole issue has been blown out of all proportion and that the punishment meted out on McLaren is bad for the sport, the fans and unfair on McLaren themselves.

By doing what it has done, the FIA has overstepped its remit; by choosing to impose such severe penalties with the minimum of investigation and verification of the limited evidence. The FIA itself should be tested in the law courts.

And to clear up one technicality, the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) and the FIA are one and the same (the former is the committee that meets to represent the FIA to make judgments in cases like this).

Ian

[Bearface]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

Tim, with the utmost respect, the fact is that there are flows of intelligence between all the teams in various forms, all the time. Every time an employee moves from one team to another, confidential information contained in that person's head will inevitably be gained by the new employer.

You appear to be dramatically understating the differences between flows of intelligence (and the usual stuff people take with them to new teams), and the existence of a massive (stolen) Ferarri dossier containing all kinds of secret, critical new stuff for the forthcoming season. This dossier was in the possession of McLaren's chief designer, no less!

Not only that, but the FIA were assured at the first hearing that the information contained within it had gone no further than Coughlan and guess what....? They chose to accept that assurance and no raids or further investigations were made, which shows that the lack of a court scenario and some common sense can often be a good thing. If McLaren had been thoroughly investigated or raided at this stage it would have caused them untold heartache and inconvenience and most certainly it would have scuppered their season. And undoubtedly you would have been saying that an investigation of that magnitude would've been OTT and unnecessary...

I'm not saying that the allegations against Stepney and Coughlan are false or lacking in seriousness (I don't know what the real facts and proof are - none of us do) but unless some more substantial facts emerge, my personal opinion, shared by a lot of others, is that the whole issue has been blown out of all proportion and that the punishment meted out on McLaren is bad for the sport, the fans and unfair on McLaren themselves.

In fairness, lots of people simply skim the news and glean the bare minimum in terms of salient information. The majority view on any potentially emotive subject does not make it the right one and so it's immaterial. Instead we should look at what we DO know, which is that Coughlan, Alonso and De La Rosa were definitely involved because the evidence is there in black and white, and that given that they were forced to submit their correspondence to avoid expulsion (or worse) from this year's championship, it's understandable that they complied.

But what about those who were under no compulsion to do anything...........? What about the engineers and other team members who have close relationships with people like De La Rosa and Alonso? You genuinely don't think these guys wouldn't have passed on some information for them to do some tests and make some changes..? Given that - as you've said - teams "borrow" ideas from one another constantly, do you not think it would be simplicity itself for seasoned engineers to implement stolen concepts while ensuring that those changes were indetectable..? Even if they were investigated, it'd need time and expertise and therefore any dodgy, incriminating stuff could easily be removed in advance.

By doing what it has done, the FIA has overstepped its remit; by choosing to impose such severe penalties with the minimum of investigation and verification of the limited evidence. The FIA itself should be tested in the law courts.

The drivers submitted the emails voluntarily from their own email accounts..........why would they need verifying, exactly? While you might consider them to represent limited evidence, if you've read them you'll see that contained within them are numerous, open statements of desire and intent to use the stolen information to their advantage. If the same type of evidence was used against a paedophile who'd been emailing a child he'd subsequently abused, it'd be considered solid evidence of grooming and intent, which would have him sent down before you could say "FIA". The worst thing any type of offender can do is put pen to paper, electronically or otherwise.........the evidence they leave is hard to ignore, let's face it.

And to clear up one technicality, the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) and the FIA are one and the same (the former is the committee that meets to represent the FIA to make judgments in cases like this).

So everyone on the WMSC is part of the FIA, is that correct? So are the 17 non-FIA members just observers, then? That only leaves 9 FIA members (a distinct minority...), which would make any decision process terribly unfair. Impossible, in fact. One has to wonder why they make the distinction in the first place...

[Ian]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

You appear to be dramatically understating the differences between flows of intelligence (and the usual stuff people take with them to new teams), and the existence of a massive (stolen) Ferarri dossier containing all kinds of secret, critical new stuff for the forthcoming season. This dossier was in the possession of McLaren's chief designer, no less!

Not only that, but the FIA were assured at the first hearing that the information contained within it had gone no further than Coughlan and guess what....? They chose to accept that assurance and no raids or further investigations were made, which shows that the lack of a court scenario and some common sense can often be a good thing. If McLaren had been thoroughly investigated or raided at this stage it would have caused them untold heartache and inconvenience and most certainly it would have scuppered their season. And undoubtedly you would have been saying that an investigation of that magnitude would've been OTT and unnecessary...




In fairness, lots of people simply skim the news and glean the bare minimum in terms of salient information. The majority view on any potentially emotive subject does not make it the right one and so it's immaterial. Instead we should look at what we DO know, which is that Coughlan, Alonso and De La Rosa were definitely involved because the evidence is there in black and white, and that given that they were forced to submit their correspondence to avoid expulsion (or worse) from this year's championship, it's understandable that they complied.

But what about those who were under no compulsion to do anything...........? What about the engineers and other team members who have close relationships with people like De La Rosa and Alonso? You genuinely don't think these guys wouldn't have passed on some information for them to do some tests and make some changes..? Given that - as you've said - teams "borrow" ideas from one another constantly, do you not think it would be simplicity itself for seasoned engineers to implement stolen concepts while ensuring that those changes were indetectable..? Even if they were investigated, it'd need time and expertise and therefore any dodgy, incriminating stuff could easily be removed in advance.



The drivers submitted the emails voluntarily from their own email accounts..........why would they need verifying, exactly? While you might consider them to represent limited evidence, if you've read them you'll see that contained within them are numerous, open statements of desire and intent to use the stolen information to their advantage. If the same type of evidence was used against a paedophile who'd been emailing a child he'd subsequently abused, it'd be considered solid evidence of grooming and intent, which would have him sent down before you could say "FIA". The worst thing any type of offender can do is put pen to paper, electronically or otherwise.........the evidence they leave is hard to ignore, let's face it.



So everyone on the WMSC is part of the FIA, is that correct? So are the 17 non-FIA members just observers, then? That only leaves 9 FIA members (a distinct minority...), which would make any decision process terribly unfair. Impossible, in fact. One has to wonder why they make the distinction in the first place...

Whenever the FIA needs to rubberstamp judgements, it convenes the WMSC. The WMSC is the governing body of the FIA, though not its day to day executive. Therefore, you cannot separate the WMSC from the FIA; one represents the other at the very highest level.

I'm tired of this debate as it's not getting anywhere. We're both entrenched, and I'm trying to avoid personalities and look at the wider view, from a fan's perspective. If you disagree - fine, you've explained your reasons amply. I'm totally content with my view. So unless the story develops, I'm leaving things lie.

Ian

[Bearface]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

Whenever the FIA needs to rubberstamp judgements, it convenes the WMSC. The WMSC is the governing body of the FIA, though not its day to day executive. Therefore, you cannot separate the WMSC from the FIA; one represents the other at the very highest level.

I'm tired of this debate as it's not getting anywhere. We're both entrenched, and I'm trying to avoid personalities and look at the wider view, from a fan's perspective. If you disagree - fine, you've explained your reasons amply. I'm totally content with my view. So unless the story develops, I'm leaving things lie.

Ian

You misunderstood - I didn't separate the WMSC council from the FIA, I just made the distinction between them. The FIA and the WMSC are not one and the same - the WMSC governs all motorsport regulated by the FIA, so while they are linked, they are not the same group of people. Only nine FIA members are on it, whereas there are seventeen non-FIA people, which is a lot different to stating that they are one and the same.

Like you say, let's see what happens. You're trying to view things from a fan's perspective (which implies that I'm not.... ) and I'm trying to look at the facts more objectively. There are arguments for both sides, but I'm only arguing about the facts we've been provided with, not with my emotions.

[coupekid]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

One thing's for sure.......all this has made me look at Ron Dennis in a different light. He's clearly a fair guy and even though he comes across as arrogant (and often miserable...), he's paid a high price for the idiotic behaviour of a few of his trusted employees. Hopefully they'll all get what they deserve...

Yep, I have always liked him.
What a price to pay for coming clean about the situation.

I was hoping he was going to just kick Alonso off the team for what he has done.

It would be so good to see Jenson replace him next season.

From the evidence I have seen so far. I think it is totally unfair as to what has happened to Mclaren. I still cant belive that Ferrari got away scott free.

[Bearface]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

From the evidence I have seen so far. I think it is totally unfair as to what has happened to Mclaren. I still cant belive that Ferrari got away scott free.

What have Ferrari done wrong?

[devilgas]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

eh?

if mclaren were to win the cc, then they'd have gotten 35m. they've been fined 50m and disqualified, so the actual cost is 85m if they'd won the cc or 50m if they didn't

[Bearface]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

eh?

if mclaren were to win the cc, then they'd have gotten 35m. they've been fined 50m and disqualified, so the actual cost is 85m if they'd won the cc or 50m if they didn't

[Ian]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

eh?

if mclaren were to win the cc, then they'd have gotten 35m. they've been fined 50m and disqualified, so the actual cost is 85m if they'd won the cc or 50m if they didn't

[Bearface]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

But the fine is $100m so that's $100m off the balance sheet for the year, minimum. The prize money issue doesn't reduce the fine, it simply means it won't have to be paid out in as a whole in cash.

Ian

guaranteed to win) has been offset against the gross fine?

This must therefore mean that McLaren's payable

[devilgas]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

i've only worked on the basic ideas that if someone is fined 50m and dq'd, then they pay 50m regardless. if they consequently lost out on the chance of a 35m prize in the process then the fine either costs them 50m or 85m (from lost revenue) depending on whether they'd have won that 35m bounty if it hadn't've been for the dq. either way, it still costs 50m in cash.

i don't know what the FIA's logic is behind the fine or whether my basic understanding of how fines, dq's and prize money would logically work is how the FIA actually apply it.

it may be that the FIA thought mclaren would win the championship and were gracious enough to still gift them the 35m prize money (assuming that's what the winning constructor receives), even though they've been dq'd, thus only raking in 15m from mclaren. can't see it somehow and i'm sure ferrari would be piping up "where's our 35m?"

[Ian]

Re: Formula 1 Spygate.....

i've only worked on the basic ideas that if someone is fined 50m and dq'd, then they pay 50m regardless. if they consequently lost out on the chance of a 35m prize in the process then the fine either costs them 50m or 85m (from lost revenue) depending on whether they'd have won that 35m bounty if it hadn't've been for the dq. either way, it still costs 50m in cash.

i don't know what the FIA's logic is behind the fine or whether my basic understanding of how fines, dq's and prize money would logically work is how the FIA actually apply it.

it may be that the FIA thought mclaren would win the championship and were gracious enough to still gift them the 35m prize money (assuming that's what the winning constructor receives), even though they've been dq'd, thus only raking in 15m from mclaren. can't see it somehow and i'm sure ferrari would be piping up "where's our 35m?"

Yes, I agree - the value of the fine has been muddled by the FIA and the press coverage. Unless I'm mistaken, the fine is $100m and the fact that it can be offset against some imaginary prize money doesn't alter the fact that if you take into account the prize money that would have otherwise been won, McLaren's earnings for the year will be minus $100m approx - at least.

Ian