Thank you, Alain...

[Bearface]

Alain Prost has expressed concern over McLaren's intention to allow their drivers to race equally, in this article over at ITV's F1 website.

While I personally don't think it's necessary to prevent McLaren's drivers from racing one another at this stage of the season (at least until one of the drivers has an unassailable lead over the other in the championship), Prost's points do at least illustrate Ferrari's past reasoning in terms of how they supported Schuey and employed a second driver not to compete with him, but to help him and the team to win both championships.

Ferrari have come in for a lot of stick (here and elsewhere...) for their previous policies, but those of us who've tried to defend and justify them have rarely got through to the doubters. Prost's views on McLaren's current set up will hopefully go some way to explaining why Ferrari took a different route to success and so appease that same group. Remember these views come from a man who himself won a number of championships and who raced on equal terms with his team-mates, so his is nothing if not a valid perspective.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear the views of the doubters, although it'd be nice if they didn't use this thread as yet another opportunity to bash Schuey...

[peter]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

I'd be genuinely interested to hear the views of the doubters, although it'd be nice if they didn't use this thread as yet another opportunity to bash Schuey...

I wish you luck lots of luck. It was a good race last weekend, kimi looked like he even wanted to race. So LH now has two wins wonder how JB feels about that. I bet Alonso was not all smiles on the inside I think alot of that was for the cameras. After some of the things he said last week I bet Big Ron had a word or two with him. Back to LH he has done so well on those tracks that he has not raced on before look out now he is going back to tracks that he knows. Oh and Ian I now have last weeks copy of auto sport with the green logo on it. I have not opened it as it came sealed with some sort of free gift in it. I will just put it away with some of my other special issues, you never know it may be worth something in years to come.

[Ian]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

Alain Prost has expressed concern over McLaren's intention to allow their drivers to race equally, in this article over at ITV's F1 website.

While I personally don't think it's necessary to prevent McLaren's drivers from racing one another at this stage of the season (at least until one of the drivers has an unassailable lead over the other in the championship), Prost's points do at least illustrate Ferrari's past reasoning in terms of how they supported Schuey and employed a second driver not to compete with him, but to help him and the team to win both championships.

Ferrari have come in for a lot of stick (here and elsewhere...) for their previous policies, but those of us who've tried to defend and justify them have rarely got through to the doubters. Prost's views on McLaren's current set up will hopefully go some way to explaining why Ferrari took a different route to success and so appease that same group. Remember these views come from a man who himself won a number of championships and who raced on equal terms with his team-mates, so his is nothing if not a valid perspective.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear the views of the doubters, although it'd be nice if they didn't use this thread as yet another opportunity to bash Schuey...

Alain Prost, a driver I immensely admire, is speaking from experience. His team mates included Nigel Mansell, Ayrton Senna, Niki Lauda and Damon Hill - champions the lot of them. He both beat and was beaten by all of them as a team mate. I can imagine things were tense in the team, especially with Senna and, to a lesser extent, Mansell (Prost certainly had the political measure of Mansell at Ferrari).

Some of Alain Prost's greatest races were against team mates of such standing. Need I say more?

Prost also has the painful experience of building and then losing his own F1 team, so he can see things from both the driver's view and a team principal's view. Prost is also cautious by nature, so I'm not too surprised at what he said. But his record shows that teams with two great drivers work and results in great racing for the spectators.

Ian

[lumix]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

Alain Prost, a driver I immensely admire, is speaking from experience. His team mates included Nigel Mansell, Ayrton Senna, Niki Lauda and Damon Hill - champions the lot of them. He both beat and was beaten by all of them as a team mate. I can imagine things were tense in the team, especially with Senna and, to a lesser extent, Mansell (Prost certainly had the political measure of Mansell at Ferrari).

Some of Alain Prost's greatest races were against team mates of such standing. Need I say more?

Prost also has the painful experience of building and then losing his own F1 team, so he can see things from both the driver's view and a team principal's view. Prost is also cautious by nature, so I'm not too surprised at what he said. But his record shows that teams with two great drivers work and results in great racing for the spectators.

Ian

The way I see it is that Big Ron is wise enough not to put all his eggs in one basket. He is first and foremost interested in the team winning, which of his drivers brings home the bacon is immaterial.

[Ian]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

The way I see it is that Big Ron is wise enough not to put all his eggs in one basket. He is first and foremost interested in the team winning, which of his drivers brings home the bacon is immaterial.

I certainly agree with you on that, Ron.

I'm a bit confused by Tim's thoughts as he started off suspecting that Hamilton was not being given the support he deserved and now that Alonso feels he's not getting enough support, Tim has marked him down accordingly. On top of that, Tim advocates a Ferrari-style (well, actually Schumacher-era - past Ferrari teams have had balanced driver pairings) system whereby one driver is not expected to fight the team leader for wins and the championship.

I think the truth is that Hamilton is an amazing talent who has been nurtured for ten years by Ron Dennis and McLaren. Of course, he's the team insider.

Alonso is the two times world champion who desperately wants to make it a third in a row with the new team. Pre-season expectations have kind of fizzled out. He's never been in a situation like this before. It must be quite bewildering from Alonso's personal perspective, especially as he is SO competitive. Not winning is basically unacceptable to his psyche. It's not pretty, but I respect him for it.

But I think one thing that Tim felt earlier in the season has been completely dispelled and that is that McLaren don't provide equal support and equipment for both drivers. Clearly they do, which I certainly felt all along.

The danger that Alain Prost fears is that the situation within the team will turn bad and that eventually the drivers will end up taking each other off on the track, as happened with Prost and Senna - no more than one occasion. The challenge for Ron Dennis and his team is to make sure that won't happen. I don't see Alonso as being so reckless as Senna so as to repeat a situation like in Suzuka whenever it was and deliberately running his team mate (Prost) off the track.

Instead, I'm enjoying a titanic battle between to great drivers in a great team!

Ian

[Bearface]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

I'm a bit confused by Tim's thoughts as he started off suspecting that Hamilton was not being given the support he deserved and now that Alonso feels he's not getting enough support, Tim has marked him down accordingly.

Let's see if we can alleviate some of this confusion...

I suspected (and had every reason to initially...) that Ron was holding Hamilton back thus ensuring that his multi-million pound salaried, world-champion driver went for the wins. However it's clear that nobody within the team expected Hamilton to dominate so quickly and so it's probably understandable that the opportunities for Lewis have made themselves steadily more available, to the extent that he's now won a couple of races. I never said that Hamilton wasn't being supported, but I did express concern that he was being held back.

On the matter of Alonso complaining that Hamilton was more established within the team (and also implying that he had more support as a result of his nationality...), I simply expressed the view that Alonso - having quickly realised that Hamilton was in fact a superior driver to him - was behaving like a spoit little brat (and for further evidence of this, look no further than his last race in which he threw a little paddy in his car, no less...)...........none of which had anything to do with my previous views on Hamilton possibly being held back by the team. Alonso's views and my own are not one and the same, so I'm afraid I don't see where the confusion is coming from at all

On top of that, Tim advocates a Ferrari-style (well, actually Schumacher-era - past Ferrari teams have had balanced driver pairings) system whereby one driver is not expected to fight the team leader for wins and the championship.

Hmmm........you've not actually grasped my point here either. I don't necessarily advocate the Schuey-era method of running a team, but I do appreciate why they did it, which is why I've always defended Ferrari on this subject in the past. In fact, I'm peronally just as comfortable with a set up in which both drivers are allowed to fight fairly and on equal terms, but when I posted the link to Prost's comments, I was simply trying to highlight the fact that what you percieve to be the only way to run a team is in fact pretty flawed in itself and can obviously lead to tensions within a team, as has proved to be the case in the past. I don't simply look at these things as a viewer, but also as someone who appreciates that these people are running businesses reliant on positive PR and stability.

Alonso is the two times world champion who desperately wants to make it a third in a row with the new team. Pre-season expectations have kind of fizzled out. He's never been in a situation like this before. It must be quite bewildering from Alonso's personal perspective, especially as he is SO competitive. Not winning is basically unacceptable to his psyche. It's not pretty, but I respect him for it.

It's not pretty at all. And yet when it comes down Schuey's (arguably almost identical mindset) focus and single-mindedness, you've been happy to criticise him for it. There's no way that Alonso knew that the rookie he was about to partner at McLaren was anywhere near as good as he's turned out to be, which is why he's now showing signs of weakness and publically throwing his toys out of the pram each time he loses to him........and do you genuinely believe that Alonso would've gone to McLaren under the same terms if he had known..? Absolutely no way...

But I think one thing that Tim felt earlier in the season has been completely dispelled and that is that McLaren don't provide equal support and equipment for both drivers. Clearly they do, which I certainly felt all along.

The question of whether Lewis was held back in earlier races has certainly not been dispelled.........not even slightly. Again, I expressed the view that Ron was keeping a leash on his rookie driver; NOT that he was providing him with inferior support or kit. I'd be keen to hear from anyone who can assure me that what I suspected was happening was in fact a figment of my imagination, but until then I'll reserve the right to remain uncertain.

The danger that Alain Prost fears is that the situation within the team will turn bad and that eventually the drivers will end up taking each other off on the track, as happened with Prost and Senna - no more than one occasion. The challenge for Ron Dennis and his team is to make sure that won't happen. I don't see Alonso as being so reckless as Senna so as to repeat a situation like in Suzuka whenever it was and deliberately running his team mate (Prost) off the track.

Alonso had already made two reckless moves at the starts of races, and he also swerved violently onto the dirty section of the track last week, which could've easily resulted in a spin and a subsequent accident. As his frustration increases, this sort of thing will become more frequent and I don't believe for a second that Alonso is above "inadvertently" running his team-mate into the gravel traps. None of this means that I think there should be changes at Mclaren in terms of allowing the drivers to race, but as I've already said at the top of the thread, it shows you why Ferrari did what they did when Schuey was dominant. You don't have to like what they did, but it definitely made sense.

Instead, I'm enjoying a titanic battle between to great drivers in a great team!

Ian

Yup, me too

[Bearface]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

Some of Alain Prost's greatest races were against team mates of such standing. Need I say more?

Some of Schuey's greatest races were also against drivers of such standing.....who just happened to race for other teams. Racing is racing, but F1 is a multi-team sport...

[Ian]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

My last words on this!

Michael Schumacher may well be the greatest F1 driving talent that walked the planet. Be it logical, strategic or whatever, the simple irrefutable fact is that he chose not to be measured against a top-tier team mate in the same car. And my forthright and honest opinion, which I know is shared by a lot of others, is that this has cast a shadow on his achievements.

I can't think of a single other great driver who had to have that kind of comfort in a team.

Alonso certainly isn't in that category - I disagree that he didn't know about Hamilton's potential; his GP2 record and pre-season testing would have warned him. McLaren also has a firm record of running drivers of equal standing and support. Alonso knew what he was walking into and even at Renault, Fisichella was (sometimes still is) rated as top tier driver yet to show his real potential. Alonso doesn't care if he has a talented team mate and does not seek to avoid having one.

While Alonso has had some scrappy and, OK, potentiously dangerous starts, these are nothing compared to deliberately driving your opponent off the track, as Senna did to Prost.

Let's just see how things develop - I very much hope Hamilton wins the championship, but Alonso is far from being the loser yet. I think Alonso has more to extract from the car and despite Indy being a bogey circuit for him, he managed to record by far the best result so far for him there last weekend.

I want Hamilton to win, but Alonso is still a major threat and it's Hamilton that is now in the position of having it all to lose.

Ian

[devilgas]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

just to add summat to this....

the most boring period in formula 1, for me, was during ferrari's unopposed dominance when a number of championships were won. with a very obvious primary driver, the result was known, barring any incidents, before the wheels had even turned on race day. wins were gifted to the #2 when the championships were safe.
sure, it's up to other teams to catch up, and i appreciate there is a business reason for being in F1, but i'm a motorsport spectator, that in the words of "why don't you", switches off and does something less boring instead.
at present, hamilton's presence has been a huge breath of fresh air. mclaren's decision to allow the drivers to race (post monaco) will, i'm sure, bring them more publicity than if they very obviously employ team orders.

[Bearface]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

...the most boring period in formula 1, for me, was during ferrari's unopposed dominance when a number of championships were won. with a very obvious primary driver, the result was known, barring any incidents, before the wheels had even turned on race day. wins were gifted to the #2 when the championships were safe.

It's not for me or anyone else to challenge you for finding that period boring, however to claim that Ferrari's bids for race wins and championships was unopposed, is - with the greatest of respect - utter nonsense. During Schuey's decade at Ferrari, it's well-known that they only had a technically dominant package for two clear seasons; 2002 and 2004. In fact out of fairness here's a run-down of the 1996-2006 seasons as they happened:

In 1996, Schuey moved to Ferrari as the engine rules were changed, which meant that in addition to fielding an already uncompetitive car, Ferrari suffered still further with the incredible unreliabity of the 3000cc V10. Despite this, Schuey won 3 grands prix; pretty good going by any standards.

In 1997, Ferrari were by no means running a strong package, but Schuey still managed to fight Villeneuve (in a signficantly superior Willaims) for the title.....although the incident in the last race admittedly did very little for his image.

In 1998, the McLaren car was by far and away the quickest and most reliable, but Ferrari were now making ground and Schuey was able to closely challenge Hakkinen for the title. It went to the wire but Ferrari lost out to McLaren at the last race.

In 1999 Schuey broke his leg at Silverstone and missed seven races. Ferrari were now on a par with McLaren in terms of the packages, but Irvine didn't have what it took to properly fight for the win and the championship again went to McLaren.

In 2000 it was another hard-fought (but pretty level between Ferrari and McLaren) battle, finally won By Schuey, who took 9 race wins. 2001 was a pretty similar scenario, with both manufacturers fielding strong cars and Hakkinen (who Schumacher has often said was the only driver he truly considered to be rival), but finally things went Ferrari's way.

In 2002 Ferrari had the fastest, most reliable car in the field and went onto an easy win. The following year McLaren came back with an equally strong package (and Raikonnen) which resulted in another very close fight for the championship - Schuey eventually won it by just two points from Raikonnen.

2004 was the second season in which Ferrari dominated F1 virtually unchallenged, although much of this was down to McLaren's unreliablity relative to previous seasons.

In 2005 the new tyre and qualifying rules played into Renault's hands and they fielded the better car for most of the season. Schuey fought hard and won some races, but dynamically the Ferrari's were not competitive. In 2006 things were better for Ferrari and overall it was probably a fair season with some great battles and some terrible luck for both Schuey and Alonso, with Alonso ultimately triumphing.

So there you have it; just two single seasons out of ten in which Ferrari and Schuey had the dominant package and were therefore measurably "unopposed" in F1. Given that McLaren were technically unopposed for at least two seasons, I think that's a perfectly reasonable record. And yet again, all this illustrates that despite not having an "equal" driver set up in his team, Schumacher regularly and consistently beat quality drivers in superior cars to the one he was driving.......and that's what made him such a great driver.

...at present, hamilton's presence has been a huge breath of fresh air.

Heck, yeah. The guy's obviously a genius............

[Bearface]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

My last words on this!

Michael Schumacher may well be the greatest F1 driving talent that walked the planet. Be it logical, strategic or whatever, the simple irrefutable fact is that he chose not to be measured against a top-tier team mate in the same car. And my forthright and honest opinion, which I know is shared by a lot of others, is that this has cast a shadow on his achievements.

Hey, I can't deny that this is the view of many people. However I've always held the view that while Senna blatantly punched and ran his rivals out of the way when the going was tough, his legacy and reputation remain postive, while Schuey appears to have had his tarnished for being at least as talented, but also supremely intelligent and shrewd both in and off the track. Sure he had his "dirty" moments (and I was as appalled as anyone when they happened...), but if galvanising a team and turning Ferrari into a finely-honed machine are not worthy achievments in their own rights, well I don't know what are. No, he didn't race his team-mates on equal terms, but he spent his entire career racing (and beating) some great drivers who often had superior machinery to his own.......so it's probably fair to say that even if he had raced his team-mates on level terms, he'd have more than likely beaten them in any case...

Alonso certainly isn't in that category - I disagree that he didn't know about Hamilton's potential; his GP2 record and pre-season testing would have warned him. McLaren also has a firm record of running drivers of equal standing and support.

Some of the most successful drivers in the lower formulas have come to F1 and achieved nothing..........in fact some of them have performed terribly in the F1 arena. The fact that Hamilton enjoyed great success in GP2 (and indeed his pre-season testing, which basically amounts to timed laps - no actual racing...) would probably have told Alonso surprisingly little about his potential as an F1 driver........and certainly Alonso's recent outbursts and tantrums would indicate that Hamilton's sheer talent and level-headedness had really stunned him. Even Ron himself held of the decision to allow Lewis to race in 2007, citing the notion that he may not have been quite ready..............and just look how wrong he was

Let's just see how things develop - I very much hope Hamilton wins the championship, but Alonso is far from being the loser yet. I think Alonso has more to extract from the car and despite Indy being a bogey circuit for him, he managed to record by far the best result so far for him there last weekend.

I'm with you there. Hamilton - assuming things remain consistent, which they rarely do - is on course to take the title, but even at this stage Ferrari could dramatically improve their package and recover a lot of lost ground. As you've said, Alonso could pull back some points to Hamilton, but I genuinely don't think he's in the same league talent-wise and therefore I'd be both suprised and disappointed. Having said that, I'm surprised and disappointed that Raikonnen isn't leaving Massa in the dust, so it'll be nothing new for me...

[lumix]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

I'm sure Ron Dennis is as surprised as we are that Hamilton has settled so quickly into F1. Even though he has been schooling him for many years. There's little to choose between Lewis and Alonso except perhaps Lewis is able to keep his head while others are loosing theirs. For me it's still to early to say he will be champion this year, with so many others just waiting to steal it away from him. One mistake could easily cost him the championship as it has so many others that looked like dead certs. I'm just hoping his luck don't run out.

[devilgas]

Re: Thank you, Alain...

the unopposed seasons were those of 2002 & 2004 (thanks for the potted history....i couldn't remember what the exact years were). iirc, 2002 was when i lost all interest in F1. should've made that a bit clearer in my first post. to suggest all of the ferrari / schumacher wins were unopposed would be completely untrue, and far from the case.