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I would be surprised if this came to anything apart from a rap over the knuckles for bad PR. It was sensible for the team to internally declare the race over after the final stop. Sometimes people forget that F1 is a team sport, after all.
Where the FIA definitely could have had a case is if a driver ahead deliberately allowed a team mate to pass for the win or if the winner was decided before the start of the race. Ron Dennis said something to the effect of the latter (meaning virtually that the guy in front at the first corner would be very difficult to beat), but it was quite clear that the two were fighting for the lead until at least the final stops (though I feel they called Hamilton in for his stop too early).
I think the investigation is entirely justified, as will be any subsequent (appropriate) punishment, if the team is guilty of issuing team orders, something which McLaren knows is against the rules.
Yes F1 is a team sport, but it's also a drivers' championship and although it's easy to see Dennis' justification for controlling how his drivers race (or not...), it's also very clear that the potential for Hamilton to win was not compromised by his inability to do so, but by Ron's orders. Given that he's (Lewis) quite obviously the less experienced but noticably more talented driver, this just doesn't wash with me. No, we don't want to see team-mates running one another off the track, but we should also try to remember that this is racing, not a glorified procession of multi-million pound cars...
As for Ron's conduct, well I've always considered him to be a pompous, arrogant individual and this weekends comments did him no favours at all. The suggestion that his cars and drivers weren't even trying was ludicrous, as you could see - particularly with Hamilton - that they were as "on the edge" as many of the other cars in the race. The McLaren chassis suited Monaco beautifully, whereas the longer wheelbase of the Ferraris was struggling, as it's less agile in such conditions......plus Alonso made no mistakes, thus cementing his victory. When Canada arrives, the Ferraris will be as competitive (or more so) than the McLarens - and Ron knows it - but he just had to have his psychological dig..............it's just that he couldn't stop there and now he's in trouble. Silly boy
Ferrari have been guilty of playing the team game in the past just a little too often, but it seems to me that while they're now giving both their drivers a fair crack at the championship, Ron's decided to play God and control things to suit him, rather than the drivers. It probably has a lot to do with his investment in Alonso (his services cost the team slightly more than Hamilton's...) and he doesn't want his cheaper driver showing up the world champ. It's a shame, because it's very clear who the better driver is...
I think the investigation is entirely justified, as will be any subsequent (appropriate) punishment, if the team is guilty of issuing team orders, something which McLaren knows is against the rules.
Yes F1 is a team sport, but it's also a drivers' championship and although it's easy to see Dennis' justification for controlling how his drivers race (or not...), it's also very clear that the potential for Hamilton to win was not compromised by his inability to do so, but by Ron's orders. Given that he's (Lewis) quite obviously the less experienced but noticably more talented driver, this just doesn't wash with me. No, we don't want to see team-mates running one another off the track, but we should also try to remember that this is racing, not a glorified procession of multi-million pound cars...
As for Ron's conduct, well I've always considered him to be a pompous, arrogant individual and this weekends comments did him no favours at all. The suggestion that his cars and drivers weren't even trying was ludicrous, as you could see - particularly with Hamilton - that they were as "on the edge" as many of the other cars in the race. The McLaren chassis suited Monaco beautifully, whereas the longer wheelbase of the Ferraris was struggling, as it's less agile in such conditions......plus Alonso made no mistakes, thus cementing his victory. When Canada arrives, the Ferraris will be as competitive (or more so) than the McLarens - and Ron knows it - but he just had to have his psychological dig..............it's just that he couldn't stop there and now he's in trouble. Silly boy
Ferrari have been guilty of playing the team game in the past just a little too often, but it seems to me that while they're now giving both their drivers a fair crack at the championship, Ron's decided to play God and control things to suit him, rather than the drivers. It probably has a lot to do with his investment in Alonso (his services cost the team slightly more than Hamilton's...) and he doesn't want his cheaper driver showing up the world champ. It's a shame, because it's very clear who the better driver is...
Hi Tim - no I have to disagree with you this time. I thought the race was great - both Alonso and Hamilton were really on the limit for much of the race. They were clearly racing each other very hard and although I was cheering for the new boy Hamilton, I think credit is due to Alonso for really controlling the race - responding to everything Hamilton threw at him and making fewer mistakes.
It's routine for all the teams to practice the policy of holding station and saving the cars for the finish after the last stops. There is only one exception to this and that's if one car starts to falter - in which case the faster car should most definitely be allowed to race for the lead (and of course the leading car should be able to defend) but both should ensure that the racing is clean.
McLaren have never had a policy, like Ferrari, of effectively running a one and a half car team, with the majority of resources going into one car (driver). They should be congratulated for this policy. I see nothing wrong with what happend in Monaco and, according to Ceefax today, Jacky Stewart is also on record as saying McLaren did nothing wrong.
If McLaren get penalised, I for one will be asking why when some other teams effectively prevent one driver from beating their team mate at the time of signing their contracts.
I'm siding with Ian on this one. Although I am a Lewis Hamilton fan, and think that he has the potential to eclipse the records of Schumacher (Michael's, not Ralph's as even Jenson could do that), the result of Sunday's race was a fair reflection of the weekend's events. Alonso did all that was asked of him - pole, fastest lap and flawless race. Interestingly enough, Alonso managed to ease away from Hamilton during the first stint, and the gap was closed just before the pitstop due to traffic and not because of Hamilton's pace.
Alonso seemed to have enough in reserve to respond to Hamilton's advances, and I have my doubts whether he (Hamilton) would have been able to do enough to leapfrog Alonso had he pitted 3 laps later.
Ron Dennis can be overbearing at times, but he has what it takes to run a successful racing team. He has also shown on numerous occasions that he has no hesitation in letting his drivers race each other. The most famous reminder of this is Prost and Senna colliding at Japan whilst dueling for the championship.
Lewis may have been disappointed, but he'll see the top step of the podium soon enough - Silverstone would be a fairytale win. At the end of the day, I'd rather see a disappointed Lewis Hamilton honestly share his emotions that sit through the **** kissing ramblings of a Barichello/Massa/insert name here puppet sprouting Hallmark sentiments about the team and how happy they are to contribute to the cause.
Hi Tim - no I have to disagree with you this time. I thought the race was great - both Alonso and Hamilton were really on the limit for much of the race. They were clearly racing each other very hard and although I was cheering for the new boy Hamilton, I think credit is due to Alonso for really controlling the race - responding to everything Hamilton threw at him and making fewer mistakes.
It's routine for all the teams to practice the policy of holding station and saving the cars for the finish after the last stops. There is only one exception to this and that's if one car starts to falter - in which case the faster car should most definitely be allowed to race for the lead (and of course the leading car should be able to defend) but both should ensure that the racing is clean.
McLaren have never had a policy, like Ferrari, of effectively running a one and a half car team, with the majority of resources going into one car (driver). They should be congratulated for this policy. I see nothing wrong with what happend in Monaco and, according to Ceefax today, Jacky Stewart is also on record as saying McLaren did nothing wrong.
If McLaren get penalised, I for one will be asking why when some other teams effectively prevent one driver from beating their team mate at the time of signing their contracts.
Ian
McLaren openly admitted to controlling the outcome of the race; if the investigation finds them guilty, they'll have to pay the price. Hamilton is the least experienced driver of the two, but he's definitely more talented and has regularly shown Alonso the way home in fair, straight racing. And that's just in his first few races...
Oh, and in qualifying, Lewis hit traffic. Alonso didn't. Who is responsible for the timing in terms of sending out drivers to optimize their odds of a clean lap?
Jackie Stewart says a lot of things. He was a great driver, but sometimes he talks rubbish. I'm not remotely surprised he defended McLaren
Ferrari are not running a one and a half car team anymore. With Schuey, such a policy was justified because he was simply a genius both behind the wheel and in terms of how he pulled the team around him, whereas now the two Ferrari drivers have equal kit and the freedom to fight for titles. So they're certainly not effectively preventing one driver from beating their team-mate either contractually or otherwise.
If a team has two drivers of vaguely similar ability and both have a chance of the title (and Lewis was winning that particular race at the start of the Monaco weekend), then the drivers should be allowed to race. However if one driver has a clear advantage over his team-mate, I think team orders make sense. In this case, it simply didn't make sense.
McLaren openly admitted to controlling the outcome of the race; if the investigation finds them guilty, they'll have to pay the price. Hamilton is the least experienced driver of the two, but he's definitely more talented and has regularly shown Alonso the way home in fair, straight racing. And that's just in his first few races...
I'll give you that McLaren's PR was woeful after the race. Big Ron is not the most camera-friendly figure, but a lot of people say that his image is not the same as he is away from the camera and he's generally credited as one of the good guys. Hamilton kinda should have kept shtum too
Yep, I think Hamilton gave Alonso a big surprise in the first few races and I think if Alonso does win this year's championship, it will be his toughest yet. But he has experience and that can be a big answer to sheer speed. Alonso upped his game last weekend and I think his confidence is back aplenty.
But Hamilton is going to win and soon - I'm sure, and neither Ron Dennis nor the rest of the McLaren management are going to prevent him from doing that. I'd put money on that not happening at Ferrari if Hamilton was Schumacher's No.2 - and yes, I believe Hamilton could beat Schumacher easily.
Oh, and in qualifying, Lewis hit traffic. Alonso didn't. Who is responsible for the timing in terms of sending out drivers to optimize their odds of a clean lap?
Nah - traffic is always a problem at Monaco. I think Hamilton got the most he could out of the car actually, considering he had three laps more fuel than Alonso.
Jackie Stewart says a lot of things. He was a great driver, but sometimes he talks rubbish. I'm not remotely surprised he defended McLaren
Hmmmm.... some examples might help your argument here
Ferrari are not running a one and a half car team anymore. With Schuey, such a policy was justified because he was simply a genius both behind the wheel and in terms of how he pulled the team around him, whereas now the two Ferrari drivers have equal kit and the freedom to fight for titles. So they're certainly not effectively preventing one driver from beating their team-mate either contractually or otherwise.
I welcome the change in Ferrari's policy, but I ask myself whether or not this is a result of the unexpected dominance of Massa over Raikkonen? You simply can't hide that - even if you are Ferrari.
Schumacher's so-called genius should have meant that he didn't require preferential treatment. In any case, history has been written and while I firmly concede his achievements are a huge record, his success is stained by the political nature of the him and the team - and surely you can't deny that.
If a team has two drivers of vaguely similar ability and both have a chance of the title (and Lewis was winning that particular race at the start of the Monaco weekend), then the drivers should be allowed to race. However if one driver has a clear advantage over his team-mate, I think team orders make sense. In this case, it simply didn't make sense.
It depends on where you think the 'team orders' were applied. I think it's perfectly reasonable, after the last stops at Monaco that Hamilton should have been cooled down in order to preserve his remarkable achievement up to that point in the race - remember, he's the inexperienced one. He could so easily have thrown it all away.
If Hamilton had out-dragged Alonso to the first corner, I believe Hamilton would have won the race - no doubt about it.
The FIA rules were introduced to banish the farces of Schumacher slowing down to let Barrichello win and for Coulthard pullling over to let Hakkinen win. Those were dark days for F1. The Monaco result was the end point of a genuinely thrilling race.
If McLaren get thrown out, do you think Ferrari justify inheriting the win?
Hmmmm.... some examples might help your argument here
He's made tons of outspoken remarks over the years about all kinds of things. That I think some of them (especially about Schuey) have been rubbish doesn't alter the fact that he was a great driver. However his defence of McLaren isn't significant and it certainly doesn't change anything
If McLaren get thrown out, do you think Ferrari justify inheriting the win?
Ian
Ferrari don't need to justify it. If the FIA deem a given set of circumstances to be unsporting or inappropriate and the result is that they strip McLaren of their win, then Ferrari have simply inherited, not deserved their win.
However, I think McLaren should lose their Monaco constructors points, while the drivers should retain theirs. Ferrari should simply remain as they are in terms of points etc.
But Hamilton is going to win and soon - I'm sure, and neither Ron Dennis nor the rest of the McLaren management are going to prevent him from doing that. I'd put money on that not happening at Ferrari if Hamilton was Schumacher's No.2 - and yes, I believe Hamilton could beat Schumacher easily.
Oh Ian if anything was going to bring me into this one it has to be this. Hamilton has done one hell of a job this year no one can take this away from him but at the end of the day it is his first season. Big Ron has always I think put the team well ahead of any driver so in that respect Hamilton is only a small cog. Yes he will win and he may be the next big thing but we will all have to wait and see on that one.having said that about Ron he does always seem to have a favorite driver.
Now we all know that Monaco is not a real race as such it is all about the money.
I then think and this may come as a shock but Ron was right to tell them to hold station. They had the race in their back pocket. Ferrari did not have a chance this weekend it seems. What was the point of having them race each other and maybe take each other off. The mistake was making it know what he had done.
Now what was that you said about Hamilton beating Schumacher .
In a sport such as F1, PR is everything. Bad PR reflects directly on the sport, let alone poor sportsmanship.
Article on pitpass.com contains the following: "the FIA's investigation will focus on whether the Woking team broke Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, which rules that if the sport is brought into disrepute by: "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motorsport generally""
Based purely on my interpretation of the underlined bit, I think was have a prima facie case for having Max Mosely and Bernie Ecclestone banned for life.
Now what was that you said about Hamilton beating Schumacher .
Yeah, that bit got me too. Hamilton's possibly the greatest natural talent in F1 (along with Raikonnen) right now, but all anyone can do is speculate as to whether he'd consistently beat Schuey, coz he's retired...
I can recall the world and his wife (and Jackie Stewart) discussing Schumacher and his legacy when he'd retired, and many people expressed the view that Senna was the superior driver. Given the consitency of his pace and indeed his wins, combined with the fact that Schuey won way more races per season on average than Senna did, it's only Senna's style and charisma that people can be referring to. In fact, I thought he was brilliant to watch, but there's no doubt that Schuey was the better driver, regardless of the mistakes he undeniably made.
As for Hamilton beating Schuey consistently over a typical GP driver's career term, well I'm not sure. Hakinnen and Alonso did it twice apiece, but these were during periods when the Ferrari package (or the tyres) were not up to the job. For example, if Schuey had stayed on at Ferrari for another season and Alonso had remained at Renault, would Alonso be leading the championship right now? Probably not...
Based purely on my interpretation of the underlined bit, I think was have a prima facie case for having Max Mosely and Bernie Ecclestone banned for life.
Sean
Absolutely. I think we'd all welcome a change at the top, in particular the two power-crazed, self-serving clowns to whom you refer...
Hi Tim - no I have to disagree with you this time. I thought the race was great - both Alonso and Hamilton were really on the limit for much of the race. They were clearly racing each other very hard and although I was cheering for the new boy Hamilton, I think credit is due to Alonso for really controlling the race - responding to everything Hamilton threw at him and making fewer mistakes.
It's routine for all the teams to practice the policy of holding station and saving the cars for the finish after the last stops. There is only one exception to this and that's if one car starts to falter - in which case the faster car should most definitely be allowed to race for the lead (and of course the leading car should be able to defend) but both should ensure that the racing is clean.
McLaren have never had a policy, like Ferrari, of effectively running a one and a half car team, with the majority of resources going into one car (driver). They should be congratulated for this policy. I see nothing wrong with what happend in Monaco and, according to Ceefax today, Jacky Stewart is also on record as saying McLaren did nothing wrong.
If McLaren get penalised, I for one will be asking why when some other teams effectively prevent one driver from beating their team mate at the time of signing their contracts.
Ian
WOW!
Hornets nest spring to mind.
At the end of the day, it would have been complete madness to let the two Mclarens race. Its hard enough to overtake on any circuit, but Monaco is nigh on impossible!
I still maintain that Ron Dennis, on this track, made the right decision.....I didnt like it, because like any F1 fan, I want to see battles, but it simply would not make sense, on any other track of course they should have been left to battle it out.
Ron Dennis just needs to keep quiet about these sorts of decisions in front of the cameras......I just hope they dont have to pay for it by way of point losses for both Alonso, Hamilton. I think it would be wiser to disallow the manufacturer points for the race.
Time will tell, we may even find out by Friday.
So, whats everyones speculations then? I reckon loss of Manufacturer points.
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