Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

[Ian]

I couldn't let this on pass without a little rant!

Yesterday's Alonso/Massa/Ferrari manoeuvre was a disgrace to F1 in my book. There was just so much BS going on. Alonso telling the press he thought Massa had a brake problem. Massa telling everyone it was his decision to let Alonso past. Domenicali saying no instruction was given.

I guess the $100,000 fine was imaginary and that the stewards were somehow at some imaginary race for handing out the fine and referring the matter to the FIA.

I must have dreaming in front of the TV I guess

Ian

[Patrick]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

I couldn't let this on pass without a little rant!

Yesterday's Alonso/Massa/Ferrari manoeuvre was a disgrace to F1 in my book. There was just so much BS going on. Alonso telling the press he thought Massa had a brake problem. Massa telling everyone it was his decision to let Alonso past. Domenicali saying no instruction was given.

I guess the $100,000 fine was imaginary and that the stewards were somehow at some imaginary race for handing out the fine and referring the matter to the FIA.

I must have dreaming in front of the TV I guess

Ian

Hi Ian

Its the old story yet again one rule for Ferrari and another for the rest, it losses the sport credibility. $100,000 fine peanuts to such a highly sponsored team. The only thing they will understand is lost points, or being pushed to the back of the grid for say three races.

Patrick

[devilgas]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

re the fine..... the stewards could do little other than what they have done and refer it to the FIA. the case will not be heard by the WMSC / FIA until next month, so we should reserve judgement on one rule for ferrari and a different one for the rest until the hearing has taken place.

looking at the tables after the race, it was the correct decision to take, but morally it was so wide of the mark it's unreal! we were robbed of a genuine race as the only overtake for position (conveniently ignoring the first 5 secs ) that FA could achieve *all race* was due to being let through courtesy of a thinly coded team message. lame.
massa had little choice in the matter, nor did rob, although i fear that rob's obvious displeasure in relaying the various radio messages we heard will not go without some form of reprisal.

i think EJ summed up perfectly how i felt about it after the race

[Bear]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

At least the occasional scandal adss a little bit of interest to the dullest procession on the planet.

[Patrick]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

re the fine..... the stewards could do little other than what they have done and refer it to the FIA. the case will not be heard by the WMSC / FIA until next month, so we should reserve judgement on one rule for ferrari and a different one for the rest until the hearing has taken place.

looking at the tables after the race, it was the correct decision to take, but morally it was so wide of the mark it's unreal! we were robbed of a genuine race as the only overtake for position (conveniently ignoring the first 5 secs ) that FA could achieve *all race* was due to being let through courtesy of a thinly coded team message. lame.
massa had little choice in the matter, nor did rob, although i fear that rob's obvious displeasure in relaying the various radio messages we heard will not go without some form of reprisal.

i think EJ summed up perfectly how i felt about it after the race

Ok will reserve judgment as you say, but past decisions concerning Ferrari does not bode well for a fair judgment and penalty. I didn't actually see the race just a few details on the news.
I was doing along with 12 others a workshop with Lee Preston much more absorbing.

[Patrick]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

At least the occasional scandal adss a little bit of interest to the dullest procession on the planet.

You make a good point there.

Patrick

[Ian]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

There have been some good races this year and this one was shaping up really well, and then all the excitement was axed by the Ferrari decision.

Ian

[Ian]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

It's very interesting as the former team principal of Ferrari, Jean Todt, is now the president of the FIA.

I noted that David Coulthard was getting a bit blue in the face trying to get his point across that there are team orders all the way down the pit lane, but it's done with a lot more subtlety. He also feels that the rule introduced after 2002 (after the Barrichello/Schumacher incident at Austria, which was almost a mirror image of what happened yesterday) is stupid because F1 is a team sport.

My response is; of course it's a team sport; the team supplies each of its drivers a car that is hopefully capable of winning. But there is also a drivers championship and as far as I'm concerned the drivers should be able compete against each other without interference from the team, unless of course the second driver is no longer able to win the drivers' championship. We're only just past the half way mark of the season and Massa is no way out of the hunt for the championship.

The rule that says the team cannot order one of their drivers to make way for the other was clearly broken yesterday and it denied the fans a great finish to the race. Often Ferrari fans pull together in times of controversy for their team, but this time I know of several Ferrari fans who are upset by what happened yesterday.

The FIA has to be very unequivocal about this - there can be no namby-pamby ruling when they meet next; they must make a very fair ruling or risk the wrath of the fans and their critical support for the sport.

Ian

[devilgas]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

Ok will reserve judgement as you say, but past decisions concerning Ferrari does not bode well for a fair judgement and penalty.

so far, jean todt (president of the FIA and ex ferrari team principle) has had a relatively controversy free tenure. it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. i think (hope!) he'll cast aside his previous ferrari ties and play it down the middle - if nothing other than to prove that FIA doesn't stand for Ferrari International Assistance - as the whole sport will be watching very closely.

team instructions to maintain station i fully understand (button / hamilton @ turkey). team instructions to swap order and contrive a result that would not have likely happened is just plain wrong, regardless of who's involved.

[peter]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

It's very interesting as the former team principal of Ferrari, Jean Todt, is now the president of the FIA.

I noted that David Coulthard was getting a bit blue in the face trying to get his point across that there are team orders all the way down the pit lane, but it's done with a lot more subtlety. He also feels that the rule introduced after 2002 (after the Barrichello/Schumacher incident at Austria, which was almost a mirror image of what happened yesterday) is stupid because F1 is a team sport.

My response is; of course it's a team sport; the team supplies each of its drivers a car that is hopefully capable of winning. But there is also a drivers championship and as far as I'm concerned the drivers should be able compete against each other without interference from the team, unless of course the second driver is no longer able to win the drivers' championship. We're only just past the half way mark of the season and Massa is no way out of the hunt for the championship.

The rule that says the team cannot order one of their drivers to make way for the other was clearly broken yesterday and it denied the fans a great finish to the race. Often Ferrari fans pull together in times of controversy for their team, but this time I know of several Ferrari fans who are upset by what happened yesterday.

The FIA has to be very unequivocal about this - there can be no namby-pamby ruling when they meet next; they must make a very fair ruling or risk the wrath of the fans and their critical support for the sport.

Ian

I fully agree with what has been said. This was my fb post yesterday and I stick by it.

"I am a big Ferrari fan as many of you will know. What I saw today was not a race win but a race fix. This is not what I want to watch F1 for. I want to see the drivers go head to head and RACE. I do not like to say this but I think they should be stripped of the results today."

I also posted this later on.
"Oh and another thing why are they told to save fuel and slow down then told with about 4 laps to go hey guess what you have enough fuel so race. God give them all the same size fuel tanks fill them to the brim then send them out to race."

off topic did you all see the bit about Senna on top gear last ?

[coupekid]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

Hi all
Now how did I know there would be a rant here about this! Hehe

I couldn't agree more with eddie jordan frankly
I reckon the fairest decision would be a points fine for Ferrari

I do feel very sorry for massa though , especially as it was the anniversary of his accident

Fingers crossed the decision is a fair one

[Ian]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

See this: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85587

Di Montezemolo's arrogance is breathtaking. He is basically saying he doesn't care if the team broke rule.

This is a real challenge to the authority of the FIA.

And he goes on to say that the drivers know that they are secondary to the team. That's fine, but why distort that into favouring a driver? It's contradictory. The team is there to win the constructors' championship. The drivers have their own championship.

There is all this nonsense about the old days when drivers used to get out of the car in the middle of the race to help out their team mate. That was 50 years ago - this is now. And in any case, I'm not sure that a driver ever gave up the lead to help a team mate by giving him his car (might be proved wrong admittedly, but I think it's highly unlikely.

The whole thing is becoming an even bigger scandal than 2002!

Ian

[Mowgli]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

I actually swiched off before Alonso had parked his car, I didnt want to look at the farcical presentation to the "winner". On a slightly different note there is a lot said about the great harmony in the Mclaren team, would it still be this good if it was Button ahead in the points??
Mowgli

[Ian]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

I actually swiched off before Alonso had parked his car, I didnt want to look at the farcical presentation to the "winner". On a slightly different note there is a lot said about the great harmony in the Mclaren team, would it still be this good if it was Button ahead in the points??
Mowgli

I have no doubt that Lewis is just as much a gentleman as Jenson. Lewis has matured a lot since his time with Alonso at McLaren and I think he genuinely appreciates having a tough but fair team mate. I was impressed that he went out of his way to stress that he would never want anything off of Jenson's car in the way that caused so much trouble at Red Bull.

Ian

[devilgas]

Re: Do you understand the message? German Grand Prix

I also posted this later on.
"Oh and another thing why are they told to save fuel and slow down then told with about 4 laps to go hey guess what you have enough fuel so race. God give them all the same size fuel tanks fill them to the brim then send them out to race."

i think you already know the answer to this peter. as has been suggested, 1 lap of fuel means an extra 0.1s on the laptime. extrapolate that out over 60 laps and that's 6 secs on the race time. so, underfueling the car is common, especially on circuits where the safety car is likely to play a part.
putting 2 less laps of fuel in 'saves' 12s over the race. if you drop into fuel saving mode towards the end of the race, you'll lose most, if not all of that gain, however as the car is 5kgs or so lighter for the entire race, you get better performance throughout (and more fuel efficiency).

... 4 laps to go....

again, i can see how this can happen. the fuel calcs are continually revised, so it's not inconceivable to find that in the closing few laps, there is enough fuel to finish the race, so the guys can cane it until the end. there is still kudos in claiming the fastest lap....

off topic did you all see the bit about Senna on top gear last ?

that was great. just about one of the best TG's ever. get rid of the contrived snowmobile race at the start and it would've been just about perfect. just seeing how lewis was around senna's old car was tv gold.